Tottenham rioting

[sfxmum]

has anyone heard? seems to be all over Twitter but not on other media
apparently police cars burning

I'm afraid I have to blame the teachers now. :o

Yes, let us return to grounds upon which at least 80% of MN feels secure.
It is indeed the fault of the teachers.

I'd want danger money to teach in that area at the moment. I expect there are a few teachers reconsidering their position.

I thought carrying a gun was an offence that meant trial and sentencing, not death

And I would like to know what multiculturalism has to do with this?

I live in a wealthy pocket of inner London (Highbury) which is right in the middle of the areas being affected. I grew up and went to school in Tottenham and my mother has lived in Enfield for years so also a bit of an Enfield girl.

I am not surprised that this has not kicked off in the wealthier areas and is still contained in deprived areas. All of London apart from a few outer areas has a high level of multiculturalism. As a resident who has grown up in these areas, I can see why this is happening in the deprived areas of London.

When I first moved here, I lived on one of the worst estates in Tottenham and went to a very rough school in the Seven areas. There is a definite sense of alienation and the young people feel left at the wayside.

Under the current tory government, this does not surprise me at all.

This is nothing to do with multiculturalism but rather about deprivation and other socio economical issues. All types of people are involved in these riots.

Seven Sisters area*

LDNMummy the day someone points a loaded gun at you, you might find yourself feeling slightly differently. The police are expected to protect members of the public. If you are faced with a man toting a loaded gun (allegedly) then there is only one sure way to guarantee he doesn't get to run amok with it.

Why do you persist in making excuses for these people? How many more young people need to die in inner city areas at the hands of their peers before you are happy with the police doing whatever is necessary to stop it? Should they just be left alone to get on with killing one another, so long as the rest of us are well out of it? Can you imagine what kind of stress the police are under in the heat of the moment when faced with these scenarios?

Who was duggan intended on shooting?

Quite FN, I am personally glad there is one less 'gangsta' off of the streets. I'm not going to boo-hoo about some scum who thinks its ok to carry a deadly weapon, and I'm rather pleased that my tax money isn't going towards his upkeep in prison.

It is interesting that on the Louis Theroux prison programme when the inmates who were jailed for gun crimes talked about contemporaries who had died they very much had a live by the sword die by the sword attitude and admitted that there was always the possibility they could be shot by rival gangs/police etc but they were kind of resigned to it and accepted that if they chose to carry a gun that was one of the risks. Here it seems that is not the case and as soon as someone who was armed dies in this situation everyone is more keen to find someone to blame and exonerate the armed? Why do you think this is? God knows why he was shot and the police certainly have a dreadful public image atm but this guy and a gun down his sock and was not some innocent bystander.

Fellatio, I dont think LDN Mummy is making excuses for armed criminals, just pointing out that the police have to be held accountable when they do shoot to kill (which hopefully they are being by the IPCC at this very moment). Isn't that the mark of a civilised society?

What is the alternative? Should we just arm all police and allow them to shoot at will?

I agree that reasonable force needs to be taken to secure public safety, and if that genuinely means that an armed man has to be shot dead, then so be it (still not clear what the Duggan situation is, though, so perhaps we should refrain from calling him a 'gangster' and a 'scumbag', everyone?).

And for those that think that citing socio-economic reasons for gun crime, rioting and general criminality in these deprived areas is 'letting them off the hook'...ask yourself why this is happening in Tottenham, why it is mainly young black men from poor areas who are affected by gun crime and why Trident exists in the first place?

I don;t make excuses or apologise for murderers or gunmen or looters, but I am interested in getting to the root of why these things happen, rather than just bleating on about scumbag hoodies...

It's also worth remembering that whenever there is a gang related incident - the police get absolutely no help from the local community.

On estates where there are gangs - there are posters everywhere telling people not to 'grass' - when something kicks off, innocent people on the estate are often leafletted and warned of the consequences if they talk to police.

I do think the police have the most impossible task when it comes to addressing this particular aspect of crime.

"LDNMummy the day someone points a loaded gun at you, you might find yourself feeling slightly differently. The police are expected to protect members of the public. If you are faced with a man toting a loaded gun (allegedly) then there is only one sure way to guarantee he doesn't get to run amok with it."

So you were there and saw exactly what took place then FN? Sorry, I didn't realise you knew what happened for a fact

Actually, as I stated earlier, I grew up in the rougher part of the Tottenham area and my DH and I have both known people who have been seriously injured or died due to people carrying knives and guns and petty squabbles between young people.

Of course the police should be there to protect us, but I refuse to accept that that means they would have the right to take someone's life into their hands without giving a solid reason as to why the person had to die (yes if he indeed attempted to shoot a police officer and there was no other option but to shoot him in return the fair enough). And aren't officers such as the one's in that operation trained to shoot to disarm? We should know exactly why this man died, criminal or not.

The police are there to uphold the law, not be above it. Frankly I think it disgraceful that we still have had no updates as to what happened. I find it very suspect that witnesses have said there was no need for the man to be shot and with all the CCTV in London, nothing more has been established in regards to what actually happened.

I make no 'excuses' for anyone, and that certainly includes the police in this situation. Maybe that is what is grating you, the fact that I refuse to accept that the police always do the right thing and must have in this situation.

We don't know anything near enough about the situation for people to assume that the police had no other option. Of course if they indeed had no other option, then as I said, that is understandable. But considering the history of people who have died in police custody due to abuse of power, I am not inclined to believe the police are any more innocent in this situation than the man who is now dead.

LDNMummy, I agree with you entirely. I think there are those who so desperately want the see the death of Duggan, the protest and especially, subsequent destruction and looting as evidence of the "failure of multi-culturalism," because frankly, they look for anything that could be construed as such evidence (no matter how implausible) from dawn to dusk! Oh, how terribly inconvenient it was that images of events in Tottenham showed White, Black, Asian and Jewish people involved (although interestingly, imho, the Daily Mail at least have been rather selective in the photos they have chosen to use for the story, hmmmm.)

I used to live just off Landsdowne Road in Tottenham and it was deeply upsetting to see what was happening to the place I called home, and loved because of its diversity, vibrance and culture of acceptance.

I just wanted to flag up sundayrose's post of Mon 08-Aug-11 00:53:28 on page 25. When those holding power and influence in government, business, the police, the media, etc. seem to have no qualms about being dishonest, deceptive and even breaking the law, it's a bit rich to expect that young people will "rise above that" and conform to some high moral code 24/7. Perhaps they are just learning from "the best."

I see the double standard is still in operation. Can't resist slagging off a man of whom the only thing we know for sure is that he's dead, but oh deary me, we can't possibly discuss reports that the bullet in the police radio was fired by a police officer until we have more information.

I am not surprised that this has not kicked off in the wealthier areas and is still contained in deprived areas. All of London apart from a few outer areas has a high level of multiculturalism. As a resident who has grown up in these areas, I can see why this is happening in the deprived areas of London.

I certainly would not call Enfield a deprived area of London. The vast majority of the riots and looting that have taken place over the last couple of days have nothing to do with the death of Mark Duggan (even if it may have started as that) and 'young people feeling left at the wayside', and everything to do with thieving little shit scumbags with a massively over inflated sense of entitlement.

Good point Edam

Don;t be silly now, LDNMummy, of course I wasn't there, which is why I said 'allegedly' as I have done all along in this thread, and I have warned against jumping to conclusions on either side. but for a moment I was playing devil's advocate and saying that the police are justified in shooting if they BELIEVE their target to be armed, fo rdamage limitation reasons. If that turns out not to be the case, that's a shame, but they can only act on what they BELIEVE to be the level of risk in the heat of the moment.

And no, I do not always think that the police are beyond reproach - I am not that gullible.

But it does amaze me, that in an urban areas where there is a massive problem with gang, drug, gun and knife crime, and everyone seems to know someone who has been shot or stabbed, that so many people are prepared to assume that the police are the guilty party here, rather than the man they shot.
Well they may indeed be, but you don't know any more than any of us, do you? Yet you are prepared to stand up and say you'd give him the benefit of the doubt over the police?

You say they should have just shot to disarm him. He was apparently shot in the head. Early indications are that he was in a car. If (and I do mean if he had a loaded gun and pointed it out of the window at the police they are not going to ask him politely to step out of the car so they can shoot him gently in the arm, are they?

You say you are basing this on past cases of people who have died in dubious circumstances at the hands of the police. So how many people are we talking about exactly? Because frankly my guess is not that many really, and whilst any unwarranted deaths at the hands of the police are appalling and regrettable, in comparison to the sheer breathtaking number of young urban gang members murder one another month in, month out, it is a drop in the ocean.

And lets' not forget, not all of those victims have opted to live by the sword or die by it. Some of them are perfectly innocent, decent kids who have the misfortune to be get caught up in all this crap, like the poor girl who was shot in the head in a takeway.

I have no idea how heavy handed and trigger happy the police were. I have no idea if they have lied to cover up a bungled arrest. But if it IS confirmed that this man was carrying a loaded gun then in no way should the police be blamed for his death. If it transpires that he wasn't, well then I'll reserve judgement on the police's actions when I've heard the rest of the evidence.

'It's also worth remembering that whenever there is a gang related incident - the police get absolutely no help from the local community'

Nancy66, it is incredibly difficult to 'stand up to' criminals when you live among them. If you and your kids lived on an estate that was virtually run by armed drug dealers, with no chance of being moved from there, would you 'grass'?

I agree, the police have a difficult job to do in these areas. However, they are trained professionals and the Met Police as a force has had decades to try to get the tone of their policing right, which I don't think they always do in Tottenham.

samstown do you live in Enfield? There are many deprived areas there such as Edmonton(which is a massive area), the Hoe Lane area, Ponders End and many more parts. I have lived in all these areas funnily enough as my mother moved a lot before settling where she is now, and I also had my first rental flat in Edmonton. These places are very deprived.

Enfield town is lovely with huge houses and a plush high street, but it is tiny compared to the vast areas of ignored council estates that surround it.

FN

"but for a moment I was playing devil's advocate and saying that the police are justified in shooting if they BELIEVE their target to be armed, fo rdamage limitation reasons."

So if they believe a person to be armed they should have the right to shoot them? This has actually happened before has it not, to a man who they thought was carrying a sawn off shot gun but it turned out to be a TABLE LEG. Are there no other methods of damage limitation then? Surely they are trained to have more tactical skills than simply to know how to pull a trigger If not then I would question the quality of service our police force can even provide.

"But it does amaze me, that in an urban areas where there is a massive problem with gang, drug, gun and knife crime, and everyone seems to know someone who has been shot or stabbed, that so many people are prepared to assume that the police are the guilty party here, rather than the man they shot."

Possibly because the people in these areas (areas exactly like Tottenham) have to deal with unfair treatment by the police in their daily lives and so do not trust them. I myself have been victim (as have friends and family) to unnecessary and aggressive policing that was completely unjustified. Funnily enough, the only time I have ever been stopped and searched was when walking down the road with a group of young men, three black and two white whom I knew from uni. I was threatened and man handled incredibly roughly (pinned against a wall) even though I had done nothing. We were told the reason for the search was because a burglary had happened in the area and we matched the description of the group involved (so an identical group of 1 female and 5 males dressed and looking exactly like us, what are the odds). We were three metres from a party we had just attended and told them they could find at least 20 people in the property who could confirm we had been there all night. They refused and when I asked any questions was asked if I wanted to SHUT UP or be held on RESISTING ARREST.

So with a relationship such as this between the people of such urban areas and the police going on, is it any wonder that so many do not trust or respect the police? People do not just die in police custody, some leave police custody alive but with injuries and after having been subjected to abuse. It is not just death in police custody that is an issue here. And even if the number of people who die in police custody does not reach the hundreds, is it still not questionable that even ONE person dies in police custody, or should we just take it as an unfortunate accident when the officer became slightly over zealous in doing his job?

How many young people do you think actually murder each other? Youth crime accounts for less than 15% of overall crime in this country. And youth crime does not immediately equal someone dying, it includes all kinds of criminal activity including petty theft from Superdrug and other minor criminal acts.

Early indications mean nothing, you make comments as if they are based on fact when all we have is early indications that mainly have stemmed from police accounts.

I do not hate the police force, but I do not think that they are to be automatically believed. We need to know the facts, whether they did the right thing or the wrong thing is yet to be known.

Sorry for long essay BTW.

Just started in Hackney aswell, just saw on BBC !! Is like a nightmare

Without wanting to get into an argument about how 'deprived' Enfield is, if you factor in places such as Southgate, Cockfosters Winchmore Hill etc. I would still say that Enfield is not one of the more deprived boroughs. Yes there are crappy places in Enfield, but lots of places in this country are 'nice' places with pockets of deprivation, the place I now live further out in Hertfordshire being a perfect example of this.

Anyways, its all besides the point, because if you believe that the looting that took place in Enfield was the disaffected and deprived youth of Enfield simply trying to get their voice heard, then you are being a bit naive. It was kids from all over London trying to get their hands on some 'free stuff' that they had been promised if they came and joined in the fun against the 'feds'.

I actually think that the shooting of Mark Duggan is almost an irrelevant point in this particular discussion, because as I said before most of the protesting was nothing to do with it. I am reserving judgement on the shooting until more information is available.

Just watching it on the news now, just makes me ashamed to be british TBH, if this was in any other country the police would be firing shots and using tear gass, the police seem to have no control over whats happening, maybe i'm wrong but i think the police need to step it up a bit.

Just watched a bunch of youths open the back of a lorry, draged out the contents and chucked what looked to be wook at the police , i have a feeling this will only get worse if the police can't gain some control.