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Les Tricoteuses - Part Deux

1000 replies

BornSicky · 19/07/2011 15:56

new thread to discuss phonehacking scandal.

OP posts:
LucaBrasi · 20/07/2011 23:55

Kelvin MacKenzie is a cunt. Pure and simple. And testisfied by the people of Liverpool

If he amuses you, good for you. I cannot concur; he is despicable human being. If you can find something in his credit, please do, but I doubt it.
An arrogant Arse.

And again, that book is not what you think it is. Read it.

claig · 21/07/2011 00:00

I see the good and bad in everyone. There are very few despicable human beings. I like his forthright views, even though I disagree with many. He makes me laugh and is confident enough to speak his mind, which is rare in today's world.

By the way, I've got no time for neo-cons, they come out of a leftwing Trotskyist tradition. I prefer outsiders like Mackenzie.

LucaBrasi · 21/07/2011 00:01

Well read what he has done, then decide

claig · 21/07/2011 00:04

OK, I don't know what he has done. But is the book by a leftwing author and therefore is it a bit biased against him?

lem73 · 21/07/2011 00:06

I've never been so struck by the poor calibre of MPs we have as in this issue. Some of the questions have been pointless or not followed up properly. What sticks in my mind the most was when a Scottish Labour MP (forget his name sorry) asked Rupert Murdoch about why he had entered by the back door of No 10. Murdoch answered cos he was told too. The MP failed to follow up with the blindingly obviously comeback of: 'YOU WENT IN THE BACK DOOR BECAUSE IT LOOKS A BIT DODGY WHEN A MEDIA MOGUL IS GETTING COSY WITH THE PRIME MINISTER.'

LucaBrasi · 21/07/2011 00:06

Thought you embraced all points of views?

So read that one, then read a right wing one and then, et voila, you have 'balance'

BitOfFun · 21/07/2011 00:09

How much do you know about "left-wing Trotskyism", claig? Because that is certainly not how Kelvin appears.

ThisIsANiceCage · 21/07/2011 00:11

Ah yes, Klein's Shock Doctrine is my source for my coinage "disaster-opportunism" (not ?, please use freely Smile).

Klein sets out very clearly the idea that opportunists use natural disasters and other shocks to push through ideological or economic changes they've had stockpiled for ages, while the population are too shocked to mount effective opposition or can be kidded this change is just to fix the disaster.

(Sorry, still trying to catch up with earlier stuff - think animula picked up on it.)

claig · 21/07/2011 00:16

I am open to all views. But for real balance, I also take into account any slant that an author may put on the truth, be that from teh left or the right.

Mackenzie is not a neo-con, so I am not surprised that he has nothing in common with Trotskyists. By neo-cons I am referring to the crowd that surrounded George Bush.

claig · 21/07/2011 00:20

'Klein sets out very clearly the idea that opportunists use natural disasters and other shocks to push through ideological or economic changes they've had stockpiled for ages, while the population are too shocked to mount effective opposition or can be kidded this change is just to fix the disaster.'

Yes, I think she is right, and I think that is what the financial banking collapse was all about. Does Klein say that too or does she not comment on that?

claig · 21/07/2011 00:25

But I disagree with her that they are "opportunists". She says they have stockpiled the changes for ages. I agree with that, but I don't think they just wait and see if by chance an opportunity occurs which will allow them to implement what they have stockpiled.

LucaBrasi · 21/07/2011 00:29

What is 'real balance' then? How much 'slant' is that angle and how do you know?

What are you on about re the Trotks? Since when have they been a force? The neo con crowd have been in the UK since Thatcher, It was the Milton Freedman stuff that influenced Thatcher, Reagan etc. Thatcher invited the fucker for seminars.

ThisIsANiceCage · 21/07/2011 00:32

And another item from Ch4 News tonight - their Andy Davies seems to be the one pursuing this story.

Two weeks ago, Ch 4 and the Guardian ran the following story:

The Met have said that on 9 Jan 2003 Brooks was told to come to a meeting in Dick Fedorcio's office. There Dave Cook confronted her about NOTW's surveillance of him while he was investigating the Daniel Morgan murder. She replied that the NOTW were investigating Cook having an affair (with, ahem, his own wife). Dick Fedorcio decided not to push the issue for fear of annoying NOTW.

Brooks was asked about this meeting by the select committee yesterday and stated that there was no such meeting in her diary for that date, she had lots of meetings wrt Sarah's Law and if there was any meeting then it's one she remember completely differently.

This is interesting. It's not terribly likely the Met are lying about this meeting. And for most people it's not an everyday occurrence to discuss with the police the fact that one is conducting surveillance on them.

It has certainly done nothing for her credibility as a truthful witness. If she ever had any.

LucaBrasi · 21/07/2011 00:32

Did you just look up her site for that quote? Without reading a book. Again?

I suggest actually reading the books, instead of just reading other people's reviews

claig · 21/07/2011 00:39

Real balance is only judgment that you make based on experience. With experience and having seen lies from both sides, you are able to see teh slant and remove it. It also helps if you can see any underlying agenda.

Milton Friedman was a neoliberal rather than a neocon.

Neocons started on the left

'The movement emerged during the early 1970s among Democrats who disagreed with the party's growing opposition to the Vietnam War and had become skeptical of the Great Society's welfare programs. Although neoconservatives generally endorse free-market economics, they often believe cultural and moral issues to be more significant, and so have tended to be less thoroughgoing in opposition to government intervention in society than more traditionally conservative and libertarian members of the Republican Party'

'Nevertheless, the origins of their ideology on the left are still apparent. The fact that most of the younger neocons were never on the left is irrelevant; they are the intellectual (and, in the case of William Kristol and John Podhoretz, the literal) heirs of older ex-leftists.'

'For the neoconservatives, religion is an instrument of promoting morality. Religion becomes what Plato called a noble lie. It is a myth which is told to the majority of the society by the philosophical elite in order to ensure social order... In being a kind of secretive elitist approach, Straussianism does resemble Marxism. These ex-Marxists, or in some cases ex-liberal Straussians, could see themselves as a kind of Leninist group, you know, who have this covert vision which they want to use to effect change in history, while concealing parts of it from people incapable of understanding it.'

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism

claig · 21/07/2011 00:41

'Did you just look up her site for that quote? Without reading a book. Again?'

No I read ThisIsANiceCage's quote. I can't read her whole book in 5 minutes, particularly as I don't own it.

claig · 21/07/2011 00:50

You've read her book. What does she say about the banking collapse?

LucaBrasi · 21/07/2011 00:51

Are you learning as you are going? Milton Freedman was never on the left

His visits to Thatcher were well known.

Do I really have to spell it out?

claig · 21/07/2011 00:53

I didn't say Friedman was on teh left. I said he wasn't a neocon.
Yes can you spell it out?

LucaBrasi · 21/07/2011 01:09

Read it yourself
The neo cons have forced their arguments on the IMF, and destroyed viable democracries in the name of ' free markets'. Destroyed communities, freedoms there.

The 'free market' has a lot to answer for.

'improving morality'?

ThisIsANiceCage · 21/07/2011 07:49

Still catching up with BoF's excellent links yesterday, here's that blogpost again. Agree, well worth a read.

animula · 21/07/2011 09:27

Wow, well spotted ThisIsANiceCage wrt 00.32.21. That is preposterous.

And I did love "disaster opportunism". I am v. worried the end result of all this will be to push through the changes to the police force - namely this woeful election idea (which you have pointed out would be likely to increase the possibility of this sort of corruption and collusion, not end it); and a reigning in of the press in the wrong direction.

I also worry (still) for the BBC.

There seems to have been no talk about toughening up legislation/regulation to prevent monopolies forming in the media. How strange. Worry that anything in that direction might end up being (oddly enough) directed at the BBC.

ThisIsANiceCage · 21/07/2011 10:44

There were encouraging mutterings on Newsnight last night about plurality and percentage ownership of the media pie. So I think (hope!) it's on the general agenda. Agree completely that there may well be attempts to further hobble the BBC.

But did you see yesterday the other structural changes to the police, which Cameron felt the need to bring up during an emergency debate in parliament in the middle of career-threatening crisis? About allowing non-police to parachute into top policing jobs? Combining this with political police commissioners is chilling: it has the potential to transform the police service from a professional one to a private fiefdom - "I'm the new commissioner, and here are my staff."

(NB the police employ vast numbers of civilians for admin or support work, so it's not as though theses changes are needed to get hold of specialist skills.)

It's not a foregone conclusion that this will go bad, but it substantially increase the chances of it...

TheRealMBJ · 21/07/2011 10:46

Excellent blog post.

AitchTwoOh · 21/07/2011 10:50

gosh i am a bit in love with that blogger sturdyalex, that is one LUSH brain he has there...

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