FURIOUS with Gove's maths comments

[BusterGut]

The man is a total twat.
He is so out of touch, he must be living on Mars.

Bloody 'pre-algebra' - that's missing no. sums in Y2.
Bloody 'maths every day' - who doesn't?
Bloody teaching maths till 18 ????????? (Pity the sec sch maths teachers)

GGrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.
(I've written to the slimy little toad. Anyone else going to join me?

And yours too, I should think! As is the OP's, but you're not showing that any respect either, are you?

I think you're being quite unpleasant, I have to say. I felt sorry for OP, who does know what she's talking about, battling against the abrasive tone of your posts, which was why I posted in the first place.

But you're so sure you know what's 'nonsense' and what isn't, and so rude in your replies, that I'm not sure there's much point continuing.

I'm alright, yep, and so are my kids, who have been educated by committed, hard-working teachers like OP in the state sector, and I don't think that it is unreasonable of me to think that my, and their, experience is hugely anomalous.

I bet I've been in more state primaries than Michael Gove, anyway.

Oh right, read the x post - you're a phenomenally rude woman.

I have more than one child (reading much?) and I read papers, though obviously not the same ones as you.

I disagree with it for good reasons - reasons I've given, cogent reasons. How am I not showing it respect? How am I unpleasant?How am I rude? Because I disagree? Because I persist in disagreeing and can show you why? Because I find it extremely hard to believe- utterly astounding and rather depressing - that there are teachers in this country who think that everything is marvellous and no children are failing?

I notice you've started being personal as soon as you've no answer to the point - that there is a great deal of evidence of failure.

You read the papers - so how can you not know what the problems are?

Either you don't know - or you think "well I'm alright Jack".

Which is it?

ha ha at buster battling against abrasion after an op containing the words "total twat" "so out of touch, he must be living on Mars" and "slimy little toad" and I do think various bits of "ffs-ing" around the thread. Yes, real sensitive type.

Gooseberry, you do seem very upset. Which particular problems have you noticed with attainment? In which areas do you think children are failing?

Right, I've just been reading through the middle bit of this thread that I've missed, and you're consistently vile, personal, combative and unpleasant to everyone who disagrees with you, bandying about some nebulous notions that kids are failing without ever backing them up with anything at all.

It's also apparent that I'm not the only person to have noticed this about you.

I shall steer clear in future!

Yes, I'm actually angry - not particularly at this thread which is like you know so what, but angry that so many children are abandoned to failure by the complacency of teachers and the middle class parents who - "phew" - have managed to find a decent school

without ever backing them up with anything at all.

er I backed them up

you started getting personal when I did so - can't imagine why

Just to clarify, there cannot ever be complete success for all children, some children will succeed in their own terms learning to a lower level than the average or 'standard'. This has always been so and the attainment of children generally follows a bell curve distribution in all areas. I think we, as a society, have always tried to be accepting of pupils (and adults) at all levels of ability and just ask of them what they can give.

well, you backed them up by saying them again, and citing one teacher - then you said I couldn't use one school as evidence for anything I said!

Why do you assume I'm middle class, or that I had to 'find' a good school? Would you like to back that up?

I think then, from what you are saying, that it could perhaps come down to class sizes and EBD provision (where the children who are distressed and play up in class are given some help). At least we could feel that there was a level playing field if all teacher/pupil ratios were similar.

Some children are failing. It is not a nebulous idea. Not all of course. I love the way my children are taught. It is exciting and effective and I am consistently impressed by the teachers and their methods. But I teach children who leave primary school unable to read. Anecdotal of course, but still, real children. So, actually, I don't think it's methodology. It's implementation, and support.

Although that would cost so very much, of course.

I am the one teacher BTW. Hello.

alicatte: Marcus du Sautoy's games are at mangahigh.com. I think you need to be a teacher to set up accounts for children, but there are some free games available under the trial games tab.

Hello, Basingstoke.

So when you mention implentation and support, what kinds do you think would be helpful?

First of all I backed them up by mentioning the complaints by employers and entrepreneurs about the people they want to employ. Surely if you've read the papers you will be aware of this. Second, I mentioned statistics, possibly the ones that show children two years below required Literacy standards at 11 - I might not have gone into that much detail but I thought I did. If you read the papers you must know about this. There are other sets of statistics too. Thirdly, anecdote, on this thread, parents and teachers. Numbers of posters on this thread discuss lack of achievement. Did you want the links to the stats? Do you accept that social mobility is stagant when education is the engine of social mobility?

I am astounded that there are people who think that there is no problem with state education at primary level. Astounded.

And in response there is "well the NC curriculum requires this" from a teacher and "my children are doing ok" from you.

In addition the theory posited - that relying on pupils' parents builds inequality into the system - is a difficult one to challenge, even if you don't think it's proved by the current parlous state of affairs. You've made no attempt to challenge it.

I can tell you had a decent education for a start. You don't belong to the large and growing underclass. You support your child, I would put money on it, with reading and chanting tables and going to museums.

Children who don't have parents like you need an education. If that education relies on their parents they will not achieve. It is easy to see.

One difference between here and China and India is the utter support for education and the fact that it is deemed so important by families. Look at the Tiger Mother just to see how they might, as a nation, end up better at maths than our lot.

That said, as a maths teacher, I do wish that they would concentrate more on basic arithmetic in primary. Times tables is one - it's all very well saying 'My Y2 class can do them' but if they are not practised regularly all the way through primary, they get forgotten. Same for written methods of calculation - in Y7 we get swathes of pupils who can't remember how to subtract with borrowing, or do division or multiplication. It's not that they couldn't do it when they were awarded their level 4 (or whatever) it's that it wasn't drilled into them over and over and over again so that they could do it in their sleep. I could sacrifice a bit of data handling in favour of that, tbh. We cover all that in secondary anyway, but we need the foundations to be solid.

Basingstoke - personally I think that one-to-one reading is essential to obtain mastery. I run the English department and insist on it in class, we set homework which is reading with a parent, we suggest computer games which require close reading of screens as part of the progression. I am lucky in that all my parents want to help. But if they don't - we also use lots of writing all around school - even the smartboards are full of writing which must be read. The statistics show that currently just under 50% of children reach LEVEL 5 in the KS2 reading test - statistics do lie but I don't think so in this case - however I can see that the 'childspeak' used in KS1 and 2 does cause problems for children when they reach secondary and are expected to cope with a more normal vocabulary. This year's reading test was not in 'childspeak' it will be interesting to see the results of this on Tuesday. (should it be 'childread'???)

noblegiraffe - thankyou

I've said earlier I think changes are being made and I also will be interested in seeing what happens to standards over the next three years or so. I firmly believe there is a generation, maybe two, of primary children who've been badly let down by the NC and definitely (sorry Basing) by methodology. As an example of that I would cite the methodology that required children to be taught six or seven different algorythms (that's a total fail of a spell) for the same process eg long division or multiplication, then expecting the child to choose the one they find easist.

Ok, I don't think mentioning 'the complaints of employers' is massively credible as a back-up! Nor is anecdote, if I'm not allowed my own!

I'm sure there are children who are below par at 11, but do you think there could be any system where there weren't? In the mythical age where primary schools did everything by rote and there were no rainforests, was it really better? Where there even 'required standards' then?

I don't think everything about education is great - but I do think a lot is very good, whereas you don't seem to think there's anything about it that isn't dreadful - except in these 'good schools' which apparently every parent who doesn't slate the system has lied to get their children into.

Might there not be some bloody good teachers in schools at various levels?

It might surprise you, but my children aren't the only children I know! I'm aware of many kids who've had amazing support from teachers and peripatetic staff in many schools.

And I really, really don't do a lot of chanting of tables and number bonds with my kids - but I know they both did a hell of a lot at school. So I do not accept that the current system relies on parents, actually. Assuming this is a distinct point from the idea that family background will always have an impact on a child's education, no matter whether the school expects that family to chant tables or not. I don't know how we get past that, sadly.

I used to chant tables at school - unfortunately I ended up learning them as a poem and sometimes (even now) have to have a run-up with a few of the stanzas to get to the answer. Didn't stop me getting AO (AS) level maths but I can't help wishing that I just 'knew' straight away.

I agree with Gooseberry about the multiple methods problem - fine for the clever but not so great for the middle range - I had thought that all schools had to have a coherent 'calculation policy' teaching a particular method sequence now? Maybe I am wrong.

"Ok, I don't think mentioning 'the complaints of employers' is massively credible as a back-up! Nor is anecdote, if I'm not allowed my own!"

But you showed no interest - just more denial. And I mentioned statistics - no interest, just denial.

"I'm sure there are children who are below par at 11"

yes - 115,000 children two years ago left primary two years below their acceptable "literacy" age

"you don't seem to think there's anything about it that isn't dreadful"

In fact I said several times from the beginning that I thought things were improving. In any case I'm reacting to complete denialim, to people who think nothing is wrong at all.

"So I do not accept that the current system relies on parents"

You are not able to say this about "the current system" - you are able to say it about your school. Do you accept that relying on parents is bad?