Parents to be fined £1000 if their kids are bullies

[Caligula]

here

Um... what are we supposed to do? Go to school with them to make sure they behave?

What the hell is this government on? It's like a bloke in a pub whose had a couple of pints and comes up with some brilliant simplistic solution to a problem. Then makes a white paper out of it. I wonder if they get their ideas from sitting in pubs with pissheads.

I like the idea that we can return to tribal responsibility for the actions of individuals as well - let's re-introduce family feuds, like the Albanians have, shall we? And isn't collective punishment against the UN charter? This would be amusing if it wasn't so barking.

There is a logic gap, you are right.

I agree with the points Caligula made too. I do think it should be easier for parents to raise issues with the school. I had been discussing ds2's repeat bruising with his Teacher, (it was from my DS1 but it was on school premises). She told me it was being inbvestigated, but when Ia sked DS1's teacher, she told me she knew nothing and was upset, then she had a chat with DS1 and things have improved loads since!!! at DS2's teacher, [grin} at ds1's. My Dh eventually ended up getting quite stroppy with DS1;a teacher, but it needed doing.

Decent training for Teachers is needed. Coz if the Teachers appear not to care, then why should we expect the kids to?

Cff, I understand what you are saying but I would LOVE my DS1 to go to a special school, I don't see either why NT kids should suffer from him. But it's the school and LEA who won't acknowledge his issues not us, and I know of several (though obviously not all) cases the same. I even resorted to reporting Sam to Social Services for the way he treated other kids, and it takes a lot to do that to your five year old. The result? A letter explaining they were too busy with child protection matters to have anyone from the disabilities team available.

The SN kids should be getting their needs, and so should the NT. In many (not all I know) cases the system lets everybody down. If you can't get a place for your child at a Special School (it's not a choice thing) what can you do as a parent? I wish I knew.

cliffrsein how for your dd
and your niece situation has just gobsmacked me with what teacher said.

I agree with your post about sn children and their strength, I know that my ds who has sn is very strong (it takes 3 adults to hold him down to attend to medical needs)and he is only little but he is not aggressive at all. Whether sn or not I dont believe any child should be subjected to abuse in school or anywhere else.

IMO I dont think fines will work, it may for some parents but on the majority I dont think it will.
I think they should set up more LINK schools where naughty kids go and leave the bullies in there until they
learn respect for others and property
or just leave them to kick the shit out of eachother and be on the receiving end of their own behaviour that got them in there in the first place.

I agree PPF, I do feel for your situation. The way the Governments are abolishing SN schools is scandalous! It's not enough to have Teaching Assistants looking after them in mainstream schools, the TA's aren't even trained in dealing with SN! Plus they simply cannot have their needs catered for, they do not get the stimulation they need, the one-to-one, the therapy, etc. I do understand your situation. But it does sound as if you are the pro-active type of mother. This boy's mother never used to speak to any of us, when she collected her ds she kept her head down and scuttled off to her car. It would have been nice to try and talk to her.

But that might have been me! I'm useless face to face. In fact, this morning I requested an assessment for Aspergers myself and I am 100% sure what the answer will be.

But I DO know what you mean. I do try and let people know abot Sam's DX, and I do try and suss problems before they start. Also, when I realised Sam was in a playgroup where he was running it and getting away with all sorts of bullying, I removed him ASAP. I consider myself to have responsibilities for all those children Sam comes into contact with. SN kids Do deserve a little extra as they genuinely cannot help it and there is a world between being SN even if violent and an evil little git who bullies for kicks.

It concerns me that this is happening in a nursery setting. It's different at school level but nursery care isn't legally required so surely the staff should have more of a say over whom they have in the group? Plus with things like SureStart it's often easier to get intervention for an under 5 (easier- not easy!)

With a Mum so beaten down I would be worrying about the family. For example, is she being unhelpful or is she at the end of her tether? When did she last get some sleep- we went 5 years without a proper night before Sam was medicated. These all relate to the pastoral care of the child, and the Nursery should be asking quesytions.

Just to indicate the massive amount of support we get, I e-mailed my concerns yesterday to my MP (commentingt hat Sam has had to wait 8 months to see a Paediatrician which is due in February, that school won't work with us, Social Services blank our messages and the school were even feeding Sam food that we had informed them in writing triggers his absences, which is when he is most vulnerable to anger. this is our frankly effing useless reply I just received:

Dear Mrs Peach,

Thanks for your e-mail . I was sorry to hear about
your anticipated problems with your son's behaviour as
a result of Asperger's Syndrome.

Clearly there are limits to the amount of extra
supervision the school can offer especially at
lunchtime. But the matter is best dealt with directly
with the school and, if necessary, the local
authority. If there is still a problem, your best
approach is to raise it with your local councillors
who have direct responsibility for schools.

Their details are on www.newport.gov.uk.

I hope a satisfactory solution can be found.

Yours sincerely,

Paul Flynn

What's the poinT?

What presumptious class-bashing, cliff?

I think your approach is quite simplistic tbh. Was it ScummyMummy who made the point that most children are both bullies and bullied, they aren't split up into sheep and goats.

And this is what I hate about all this, this stupid idea that some kids are inherantly bad and some are inherantly good. The kids who bullied my brother, were very good kids for most of the time. A combination of circumstances turned them into little monsters for a time, and made my brother's life a misery - but they probably didn't realise that that was the effect, or didn't care at that particular stage of their lives because they were teenage boys. I'm sure their parents, if they'd known what effect their children's behaviour was having on my brother, would have been horrified and deeply ashamed. The idea that these boys bullied because they came from bad homes, is just simplistic and plain wrong.

I know nothing of the family PPF, except that he is one of a twin, and the other twin, though not SN was also said to be badly behaved. I was shocked to see this going on at a nursery, this lad was attacking teachers ffs! And ripping the children's work, etc, he was a disruptive influence. I don't know what his SN were, but I could see that he could not keep still, he was forever trying to grab something, he would rush at something, throw it on the floor and be looking for the next thing to destroy. But this was by no means a one-off. I was a TA at the school linked to the nursery and there were lots of children like this in the school too. The school went through the process of statementing for them, then they applied for support within the school, but all this took an awful long time, very often without the co-operation of the parents.

However I'm not saying that just SN children are bullies, or indeed that all SN children are bullies. Bullies are bullies and it's time we got tough with them because there is no support in place for the victims of bullying, yet lots of support for bullies and their parents, lots of second, third and fourth chances, lots of blind-eyes being turned.

Why don't you just call me stupid Caligula? Go on! I can take it!

LOL! I wouldn't dream of it!

I can have you, you know! Yeah I can! So come on if you think you're hard enough!

But the point I'm making, is that "bullies are bullies" is just wrong. Bullies are children, and most children participate in some degree of bullying throughout their childhood. We demonise the ones who are either persistent, or who have other unattractive behaviours, or whose bullying has terrible consequences for their victims.

For example, my brother truanted to avoid bullying. At one stage, he was so miserable and despairing, that we were afraid he'd kill himself. That's not an exaggeration, it was a horrific tiime for our family. My parents dealt with it by pretending to work with the (frankly pathetic) school while letting him truant and working frantically to get him into another school. (I expect the government would want to fine them £1000 nowadays for allowing him to truant, but they'd have considered it a price worth paying to have a son who was still alive.)

Had he committed suicide, the boys who bullied him would have been vilified as monsters. But because he didn't, they are probably looking back at that episode of their lives with a slightly uncomfortable shrug. Meanwhile, my brother has had years of depression, which started from those episodes.

Believe me, I've got no reason to make lame excuses for bullying. I know how devastating it can be for its victims.

Oh Lor! Are you going to this meet up? I'll get you there!

I apologise, but I changed my name you'll understand why I hope.

I was a bully. Sometimes, also a victim. I was a bully because I hoped social workers might intervene and take me away, thereby removing me from my father and mother who were both mentally ill and physically abusing every night. I thought I would die. Please don't judge every bully as evil, some are screaming out for help.

Wasabully, that is a very horrible story!
I agree that bullies are also children, and yes a lot of bullies need help. But some of you are taking the £1,000 fine the wrong way, you are supposing that parents will be slapped this fine the moment their children are caught bullying, which is not the case. Every school has to have a bullying policy, some are good and some are, quite frankly, crap. However this procedure has to be implemented. Parents will be consulted over their child's behaviour, and if the parents feel that they cannot cope, SS may be called in to help. The fine would be a long, long way down this line, when the child is a repeat offender and the parents take no steps to stop them from bullying.

I am sorry for you wasabully, but you must understand even now, that by bullying you are just creating more victims, and those victims could end up being bullies too, so it's a vicious circle. These days children are going to self-defence classes to learn how to stick up for themselves, it shouldn't have to be like this!

Caligula - maybe I am and maybe I ain't!

wasabully
so so sorry.

I think its a good idea that would work for some families. I can think of two pairs of parents I know who are sort of 'proud' that their children are 'characters' and boss other kids around. This bossing includes pushing, poking and not letting children play with other kids. This is at primary when children should be being taught by their families how to get on with other people.

I think a fine would actually work with these parents - they have actually said that it is not up to them it is up to the schools to sort out discipline and the other kids are wet. In don't think they would listen to teachers - they don't have very much respect for the teachers but they are keen on having money to spend.

I don't think anyone would want to see parents who are having a tough time penalised for their older children who should know better, but there are some families who don't want the best for other people's kids.

There is some evidence from child psycologists that some bullies are bullied at home by older siblings or parents so in this case also, holding the parents responsible should help all the children involved. A fine may shock them into action or to seek help if they couldn't handle it themselves. I don't know the ins and outs of the fine proposal but I guess parenting classes would be offered as an alternative like with speeding tickets!!

Exactly, I know parents whose mentality is, "better to be a bully than to be bullied"!

wasabully, I hope you can come to terms with what happened to you, and I hope your story has a happy ending.

I am worried my child is picking on another one but cant get hold of anyone at school to talk to!

Oh gosh I did not mean to upset anyone. It was several decades ago now of course. yes, my story had a very agreeable ending when my school tutor spotted some cuts and raised the issue with my parents who got help and I am now relatively close to them. But that shows how decent quality intervention from the school could help.

I agree with fines but only after various assessments of home life have been actioned. I am not sure how a fine would help with a family already under financial stress for example.

Thank you for your concerns. It was a fairly brief period of my life.

GREATauntymandy, why do you think he is bullying? Have you spoken to the parents of his classmates? How about you stay behind after school and demand to see the Head? It really gets up my bloody goat when schools refuse to take this seriously! I think they should be fined too if their anti-bullying policy does not come up to scratch!

Its a she and she is at secondry school. Her attitude has changed alot of late and I was wondering if she was being bullied. but I glimpsed at her msn last night and saw it say someone was going to 'get it' The other girl is a bit of a winge and complains that people are picking on her even if they arent. but then this girls mum came on msn threatening to tell me etc, so my daughter told me some things. apparently this girl kicked someone so my daughter threatened to kick her if she didnt stop.

wasabully

You have my sympathy. I was very badly bullied by a little girl when I was in junior school. She lived with her father who had beaten her mother and used to hit her too. her home life was awful and that was a large part of the reson she bullied me.

As an adult I can understand that and i feel sorry for her (and you too if that isn't persuumptious)

Just as a thought, this issue is not helped by the fact that there are children being forced into mainstream school who cannot cope.

Children with EBD can oftern be exceptionaly disruptive, bullying falling as part of the probelms that they may cause the school.

There is increasing pressure of schools not to exclude and the old, specialist EBD schools have mostly long gone.

So the child is shoe horned into mainstream and this doesn't help anyone. their probelms are often left unadressed by staff who lach the training and time to deal with their complex needs. And along with them the other children can suffer as their victims.

Agree and one of the most bizarre things I find, is that SN children in classes are often allocated untrained teaching assistants to deal with their needs.

My brother went into teaching as a result of doing a TA job, but he, the TA (not a trained teacher who actually knew something about it) was the one who was allocated to giving the SN pupils extra tuition etc.

He said it quickly became clear to him that these children needed extra help from someone who was actually trained to deal with their needs, not to be fobbed off on to the lowly TA who hadn't even been trained as a mainstream teacher, let alone being able to handle specialist work. Bizarre.