Parents to be fined £1000 if their kids are bullies

[Caligula]

here

Um... what are we supposed to do? Go to school with them to make sure they behave?

What the hell is this government on? It's like a bloke in a pub whose had a couple of pints and comes up with some brilliant simplistic solution to a problem. Then makes a white paper out of it. I wonder if they get their ideas from sitting in pubs with pissheads.

I like the idea that we can return to tribal responsibility for the actions of individuals as well - let's re-introduce family feuds, like the Albanians have, shall we? And isn't collective punishment against the UN charter? This would be amusing if it wasn't so barking.

I think the fine idea would apply to persistent bullies whose parents make no effort to recognise or resolve the problem, and, assuming this is the case, I'm all in favour of it. Anything that sends put the message that bullying will not be tolerated is IMO an excellent idea.

Too many children's lives are made miserable and even ended because of bullies. This fine idea may not end bullying altogether but it will give the parents of bullies some incentive to put their house in order.

Theres can be a difference in 'doing things behind your parents back' and bullying someone.

Nasty teens who bully and think they can get away with it - are getting away with it. This usually follows on to crime.
We dont allow bullies in the workplace - so why do we allow it in schools?

There can be but might not be.

My brother was bullied when he was at school, by a large group of boys in his class. One of them had a really nice mother, who was absolutely convinced that her DS had nothing to do with it. And he of course, assured her that he had nothing to do with it. And the school didn't quite know what to do about it.

She was always polite and charming to the teachers and to my parents, while her DS (well-spoken, academically gifted and polite) was absolutely savage and cruel to my db when no-one was looking.

That kind of bullying will keep on happening, because £1000 fines will simply be irrelevant in cases of co-operative posh parents like this one. £1000 headline looks great, but it's meaningless in these sorts of cases (which are probably more normal than the terrible headline ones).

caligula yes I have 2 teenagers and 2 in their 20's.
I once found out that youngest dd was bullying a certain girl in her class and threatening her with her elder sisters. The poor girl was terrified to go to school until I told her that if my dd threatened her again her sisters would beat dd up.
Bit extreme yes, but I am not going to have any child terrified of my children, no way.

I dont think the fines idea would work, I think there should be a 3 strikes and you are out rule personally, or a bad bout of bullying they get excluded permanantly from school.
bootcamps for wayward little shits

OMG! Class or how much money someone has shouldnt have come into it caligula! I can relate to what happened to your brother as the school I was at would not admit to having bullies in their school! The parents were not interested either. I truly do sympathise.
That woman should have been talked to by the school and action should have been taken - disgrace.

No-one expects perfection from children. No-one expects parents to be perfect either. However there are parents who don't give a damn about their kid's behaviour and these parents must be made to care.

I agree that parenting classes would be a good start but the parent must be able to show that they are implementing the startagies sugested to improve their kid's behavior.....and before anyone says that is impossible, this is what is expected in a 'failing' school or teacher.

There is also the subclass of parent who refuses point blank to see any wrong in their child's behaviour. These parents also need to be shown the reality of the situation.

If a child is misbehaving and the parents refuse to attend meetings etc, there should be an element of compulsion, they should attend. If if there are legal consequences of missing meetings, attendance rates would soar.

Poor parenting is found in all classes and parents need to be shown when they are doing a crap job. Schools ard teachers get told if they don't come up to standard.

Teachers have to be given powers to control kids in class and parents cannot be allowed to circumvent the school's dicipline policy. I well remember the case of a mother who objected to her son's temporary exclusion. He had been pulling down girls trousers in the play ground, he and they were 13 at the time. the mother complained that school was over reacting!
Society has a right to expect that the basics of resonable behaviour are taught by the parents and not the school

I would agree with the sentiment of Martianbishop's posting.

I think some parents make the mistake of treating their child as their best friend and treat them accordingly. Would agree that poor parenting is found in all classes and some parents refuse to believe that their "little darling" is the cause of a bullying problem. Denial is a comfortable existance for such people.

I personally think it should be forcefully put to these children - and their parents from the time children start school that no form of bullying will be tolerated.

Anti bullying policies are only worth the paper they are written on if properly managed by school. If not, its just paper.

Bullying incidents also go on in infants school but these places do not, as I understand it, have to have an anti bullying policy in place. Parents sign a behavioural contract but again this document has no real powers.

This isn't practical is it? Parents who will be involved don't need a £1000 fine and giving a £1000 fine isn't going to make parents who aren't involved understand that actually little Johhy is a bullying git and needs sorting out. They're just going to feel more persecuted.

Isn't part of the problem in schools (for sorting out anything) that teacher's authority has been watered down. So the kids all know their "rights" and the teachers can do bugger all about it. With real authority I would imagine it would be possible to do something about it.

I would not use the word persecuted - these people wouldn't care regardless of fines etc. They will still be in total denial of the situation. People have been sent to prison for their childrens' persistance non attendance at school and yet these children still traunt.

I don't think that a fine is going to be helpful in many cases, or practical for that matter.

But 8something* has to be done to make some parents realise that they have a responsibility to their children, and to society as a whole.

We can't just sit back and say 'Well the parents are crap and we can't help them to be any better'

You can give teachers powers, and that is a good start, but if the same rules (or similar) are not followed at home the kid's behaviour will not imporove. We all know how damaging mixed messages can be don't we, as parents?

I think truancy can be a bit different at times. I used to live next door to a school phobic and his mother tried and tried and tried to get him to school (even delivering him there) but he would clear off as soon as she went.

Isn't the real problem a complete lack of resepct for authority or society though- whatever form it comes in. MB you've said before that everyone knows their "rights" but they don't understand they have to behave in a certain way to be entiteld to those.

I quite agree that it is a general probelm. But we have to start somewhere

You see parents on TV saying 'I just can't control him' and the kid is 3. We need to make people realise that although it is very hard it isn't impossible and in the end the child will end up happier.

If you have an out of control NT kid the automatic response of mosr adults is to step in and make the kid behave. But increasing numbers of very nice parents now seem to totaly lack the confidence to say 'Sod this, I don't want him ripping up his brothers toys, I'll stop him,' or whatever

Exactly, martianbishop! Well put. As the Supernanny has to say often, 'YOU are the adult. He/she is the child,' or 'YOU are the boss, not him/her.'

Ironically it just occurred to me about truanting - the reason it all came to light when my brother was bullied, was because he started to truant because he was just so desperately unhappy and frightened and couldn't face going into school.

Under current proposals, of course, my parents would be the ones who got the £1000 fine because they couldn't make him go to school and the school was in denial about the fact that the bullying was even happening.

It just looks to me like a very stupid, blunt instrument to look like the government is doing something, in order to satisfy the "something must be done" feelings that we all have about out of control kids and non-co-operative parents. It's whether what the government is proposing, is the most effective action. And I don't believe it is, because the conditions that lead to bloody awful parenting and out of control kids, are just too myriad and complex to slap a £1000 fine on a few idiots and hope that solves school discipline problems. Where's the joined up thinking here?

There isn't any, that is the probelm.

We are dealing with an education system run by a minister who's first statement about education was to say 'the most imporstant thing in education today is parental choice'

Don't get me wrong, I've no probelms with parental choice, I've exercised it myself but surly the most important thing in education today should be happy, confident children who make progress (at whatever level).

God, it's depressing isn't it.

Most parents I know don't want choice at all. They just want to be able to send their kid to the nearest school and know it will come back a) alive, b) intact and c)literate and if they're really fancy, d) educated.

Does my head in.

The thing is she could say that and it wouldn't cost the government any money.

We have to stop pretending that all children can access everything, that one size fits all.

We also have to stop pretending that schools can sort everything out. Of the home environment is violent and bullying, of course the flipping child will act that way! Shit, you don't have to be Einstein to figure that one out.

Schools have to have good, workable policies with effective sanctions.

While it is unreasonable to expect parent to have perfect children 24/7 there are basic standards of behaviour that schools and society as a whole have a right to expect. And the parents must do this.

I have rad on the times ed website, and have no reason not to belive , teachers who have has 4 year old calling them 'Fucking cunts' and hit them. WTF? Compulsory parenting orders, with compulsory litter picking in a bright yellow coat for those who refuse to go. The coat could say 'I don't care how horrible my kids are, I know my rights'

i'm not sure if this is the right way to go, but agree that something quite drastic needs to be done about bullies. i know that there has always been bullies, but the amount of violence that is involoved now seems to be more agressive/harmful than when i was a t school.

i was bullied at school for being 'posh' when i went to an all girls local comp, but it was just a bit of verbal bullying that frnakly i ignored and just got on with my true friends and ignored the pathetic attempts to upset me by the bullies.

however ds2 who is 3yo is a t nursery school in the afternoons and there is a boy there who is a year older who bullies my son, because ds knows the bullies freind and so plays with him and the bully doesn't like it. the bullying isn't actually that bad at school, just the usual go away me and 'tom' don't want to play with you, when actually 'tom' does!

but when we go round to the junior school to pick ds1 up, this bully goes with his mother to pick up his sister and whilst ds2 is playing on the climbing frame waiting for ds1, this boy will activley seek him out and kick him very hard and punch him! i wa unaware of this until recently as my mum picks the kids up as i work, but when i had a week off klast week i was absolutley appaled that a 4yo child was capable of such a level of nastiness.

when walking round to the school the boy was in front (on his own and no sign of mum) and ds2 was running next to me, boy turned around saw ds2 and waited for him and said'you coming to play?' then when ds2 got close enough to him, he proceeded to kick the hell out of him!!!!! i shouted at him to stop it and go away, to witch he told me to f off!!! basically he went and we went round to the playground. ds2 went ot play on the climbing frame and i watched this littel so and so on several occassions go near ds2 and say oi - come here so i can kick you' to which ds2 obviously said no, and then the boy started to move towards hims so i told him to go away.

i left it on this occassion but ahve since been told that this is a frequent occurrence and now will be taking an afternoon off work speciffically to go down to the school to have a word with his mum.

but where do i go if this doesn't work???

some parents need to be made aware of their childs behaviour they stand around at the school oblivious to what their child is doing and need to know that it is unaccaptable, perhaps the threat of a visit form the police or a fine would have more of a n effect than a teacher having a word or the other parent saying something?

Good thread with lots of good points from all sides. Do you think we're in danger of blowing this all out of proportion though? Not talking about responses to children getting the shit kicked out of them- obv a strong response is needed to that. But I reckon if Al Aynsley Green is right that almost every child has been bullied then probably almost every child has also been a bully on occasion, else who's doing it all? I certainly think that, though in the main a fairly nice child, I both bullied and was a bully at certain points in my childhood. In both situations it would have been helpful to get some eye opening advice to give me insight into what was going on and how to stop it. In the end I had to sort it out for myself- by standing up for myself on the one hand and realising I was being very mean on the other. I wish I'd had a bit more adult help but I was too ashamed to discuss it in both instances. I honestly don't think demonisation and a fine would have helped, though.

both was bullied, I mean

I think the fine (ill advised as it is) is more the case of long term serious stiff than 'your mum smells' as a one off nasty comment IYSWIM

vmum how for your ds
I would personally have a word with school head also as it is happening on school premises, if they dont do anything I would make an official complaint to LEA.
your ds does not need to be treated like this

am I right that the LEA have powers to exclude children from school for persisent naughtiness and bullying as they have done it to my ds many times when he has been naughty in school, and he rightly deserved it.I have made his life hell when he has been excluded.

Also baka hit a good point about childrens "rights" being pressed upon them at school. I am not denying that they dont have rights but when a child complains to a form tutor that they are feeling "unloved" because they have been grounded as a punishment, social services duty team have been called in to investigate matter.
I realise that teachers have to act on issues that a child relates, but please find out reasons first before jumping the gun.A teacher can relate to a parent regarding homework, schoolwork and behaviour but when it comes to personal matters that is confidential. You just have to look at the teachers with the abortions issues that has gone on in school.What about a parents rights to know what is going on in their childs life, different then isnt it!!!!!
And this is a true situation as it happened to me last year with dd3, all because she was grounded.

I have always been a hands on parent and accepted when my child has done wrong, and nipped it in the bud as quick as poss. I believe that parental responsibility is paramount but also when a child is in school there should be stronger measures to stamp out bullying, by means of punishment and or exclusion for persistent offenders.

good points doormat.

I must admit I have great difficulty getting my head around the concept that parents are 100% responsible for their children's behaviour and yet do not have the right to be told if their children want to have abortions. There's a logic gap there somewhere, that I can't quite understand.

Now that the topic has thankfully moved on from presumptious class-bashing. Can I just say that it's all very well sticking up for the bullies, making up excuses for them, but what about the victims?

A case in point: At dd's nursery there was a boy there who had SN, he was larger than the other children and a lot stronger. She told me how he used to grab the children's drawings and paintings and tear them up. He would hit them and push them over. Whenever they put on a play or show, I watched him being restrained by the teachers, he would be grabbing their hair, kicking and punching them - he was unbelieveably strong! When I did complain at the times he had pushed or hit dd, the teachers were very sympathetic but shrugged and said that he had special needs and they were doing what they could. When my dd left I heard that this boy would still be in the nursery the following year as he wasn't ready for school. That means that he would be even bigger and stronger.

I don't care what excuse you come up for your child, you have to take responsbility for them. Why should we, the parents of victims of bullies, stand back and say "oh, it's ok that your ds punched my ds in the face, I understand he has ADHD, it's perfectly ok!" No it bloody well isn't! I saw my dd's confidence hit rock bottom at nursery, she became wary of boys. If she saw a boy playing on the slide, she wouldn't go and play even if she really wanted to, because she was too scared.

I'm fed up of bullies getting the soft treatment, of people bending over backwards to help them, what about the victims? What are people doing for them? What about the suicides that happen because of bullying? My niece was once told by her teacher to go and top herself when she complained the umpteenth time about bullying. That is the attitude we have to deal with! Our children are accused of being 'soft', and we as parents, of being 'overprotective'. Well kiss my arse! Fine the bloody parents and make the bullies pay for once!