Buses repeatedly hitting pedestrians in London

[HollyRoseHill]

I am concerned about the rising number of buses hitting pedestrians in London.

Most recently in March, a 12-year-old dancer crossing the street near her home in south London was killed by a double-decker bus www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12794923; or the early morning October 2010 accident that killed and dragged for over a mile a medical student in Hampstead www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23884561-bus-driver-in-death-crash-case-i-didnt-know-that-id-hit-anyone.do; and this tragic story of a father crossing Oxford Street, during the Christmas shopping season of December 2009, who miraculously survived and is compaigning to bring public awareness to this issue www.hamhigh.co.uk/news/oxford_street_battle_by_dad_who_cheated_death_1_847571.

Is it a vehicle design flaw? Improper driver trainer? Why is CCTV footage disappearing? To whom are the bus companies responsible? How many people must die before a thorough investigation of this alarmingly frequent occurance is undertaken?

Bit of a psycho yourself there spidookly. Have you seen central London? How fast do you think the buses get? Not very, is the answer, and when people walk out in front of buses- which they do, all the fucking time, the bus can hit them. That is there own fault, not the bus drivers.

Of course there are instances when the driver is at fault, but not when pedestrians walk out into the road in front of them.

Yes, I have "seen" Central London, and traffic there travels at a variety of speeds.

If lots of people are being killed because they step onto the road in front of buses then there is a problem (to my mind at least, some of you seem quite sanguine about loss of human life).

Why are so many people making the error of stepping in front of buses?

Some people are happy with "they are stupid and careless" (subtext: "they deserve their fate") and see no reason to figure out what the problem is here, and how best it can be tackled.

Given that most bus drivers don't have a murderous impulse to kill, and most pedestrians aren't suicidally careless, what is it about our roads and our buses that is making these deaths so common?

They are suicidally careless on one particular stretch of road in the centre of my city, all day long people walk right across the road, trying to beat the lights, just as buses come around the corner. Lots of pedestrians, lots of buses. You try talking to a driver who had a woman run right out in front of him, and be killed right in front of him through no fault of his own.

ask him about the nightmares he has and you might start looking at another side of it.

That's not suicidally careless. Those people don't intend that they should die through their actions.

It sounds like there is a problem with the way the lights are set.

You know that bus drivers and pedestrians aren't mortal enemies?

It is possible to feel sympathy for a bus driver who has killed someone through no fault of his own and also think it is very sad that that person died and that if there are ways to avoid similar deaths we should seek to find them.

You haven't seen them. Theres nothing wrong with the lights, just a constant stream of morons legging it across the road.

Sometimes I think we'd be better off if we scrapped all laws regarding roads and cars and simply said "be responsible"

As it is you tell some (not all) drivers to be extra careful at crossings and that the speed limit on this road is 30mph and what happens? They drive at 30 (or more) because that's what it says on the sign and if there is a pedestrian on the road where there isn't a crossing they beep at them to jump so they don't have to slow down.

You do know that if there is a constant stream of people crossing the road you have to stop anyway even if the lights are in your favour.

So what are your suggestions spid? You seem full of complaints and spiteful name calling without actually giving one reasonable suggestion. The only person by the way who has refered to the victims of any of these accidents ain such thoughtful ways as 'dosy bitch' is you and to put such despicable words into other peoples mouths says far more about you than any of the people you disagree with.

It's tragic. Awful.

However. I've driven round london many times. I've seen pedestrians.

They're bloody crazy! They rush out right in front of you, they don't look, they don't care. So many times I've seen pedestrians just walk out right in front of cars.

I have also seen (obviously) drivers in London.

They are bloody crazy. They change lanes agressively. they drive far too close to the vehicle in front. they jump lights. A red light in london appears to be a suggestion, not a rule

Therefore, it is sad, but no surprise, that there are a large number of accidents.

idiot on foot + idiot in a vehicle = disaster.

posted too soon.

In order to reduce accidents, drivers need to drive more carefully, sensibly and less agressively and pedestrians need to understand that the big metal boxes coming towards them are generally things to not step in front of.

Winter - That isn't suicidally careless. That is "in a hurry". People take more risks like that in particular situations - like when the pedestrian lights don't change quickly for them, when the roadscape is such that vehicles look further away or slower than they are, when there is a station across the road, etc. All these things and many others besides change the behaviour of road users (pedestrians and drivers). And if they were in a hurry and the vehicle's were not there they would not be at risk.

I take issue with the OP's un-supported assertion that buses are more dangerous now than they have been. But London in general is very pedestrian unfriendly and I think Spidookly's point about pedestrian deaths being taken very lightly on this thread is spot on. Vehicle's aren't a natural part of our landscape, they are a human manufactured hazard. They provide significant benefit but that doesn't mean they don't have a responsibility to be as little hazard as possible.

I think those who are disagreeing with Spidooklys turn of phrase are being painted as heARTLESS When we are merely pointing out that not all problems can be designed out, when it comes to traffic accidents.

Though it would be lovely to be able to skip blithely around central london like it was all fields - we cannot - drivers in London are often twats, as are cyclists and pedestrians - so if you want to stay alive looking listening and waiting before you cross is a good idea. Drivers should all be saintly and careful and never be distracted by children/ phones/ overtired/ bad tempered/ impatient unfortunately that is not realistic. Pedestrianising is a good idea where possible but in ancient cities like London not always practical - deliveries need to be made people need to get to work buses are required to travel across town.

When I worked for a London Borough browsing depressing accident stats were a quarterly ordeal for me and my collegues - managing traffic movements in London a big responsibility and one taken very seriously by engineers and planners but adding more barriers between traffic and people doesn't really more uncertainty regarding the boundary of pavement and road should make people more cautious - but no system is foolproof.

I am the OP. Shocked at the vitriolic responses...I was never putting blame on bus drivers or pedestrians. My posting was merely to bring attention to the need to examine bus/pedestrian incidents across the board so that changes can be put in place to reduce the incidence of bus/pedestrian accidents which I assume everyone would like see happen. This might mean changing the design of the buses for better driver views -- especially of children; or changing signage or footpaths so that pedestrians are more aware of buses; re-evaluating driver training; or reducing/banning buses in heavy pedestrian zones where pedestrians congestion is extremely heavy; or developing technology that might alert buses to pedestrians in their path..... I don't know the answer, but I was suggesting that an examination of bus/pedestrian collisions as a whole might bring some light to the situation and help reduce the serious injury/fatality numbers in the future!

Please read the London Assembly's "Streets Ahead" Report prepared by Cllr Victoria Borwick. It is available for download on the London Assembly website (legacy.london.gov.uk/assembly/reports/transport.jsp). Page 14 shows clearly that there have been over 1000 pedestrian casualties and over 200 pedestrians killed or seriously injured on Oxford Street since 2000. That's one street only 1.5 miles long, and buses (320-400 of them per hour) are essentially the only vehicles on that street. Oxford Street is Europe's busiest shopping street.

On Oxford Street, TfL has created a situation where too many buses are travelling next to too many people. On the basis of the published data, one could legitimately draw the conclusion that buses are driving too fast and/or without due care. Contrary to what has been posted by some people on this page, pedestrians are human beings. They have children, mothers, fathers, husbands or wives - and they don?t want to be killed or seriously injured and, frankly, that should not the punishment for being distracted on Europe's busiest shopping street. And contrary to some of the postings on this page, bus drivers are human beings too the vast majority consistently behave professionally and none of them would want to kill pedestrians or have their loved ones injured or killed by buses either.

In many democratic developed countries, if a driver hits a pedestrian with a vehicle, the driver is automatically heavily fined - and if a driver kills a pedestrian, the driver is automatically criminally charged and, usually, goes to jail. Also in many countries, pedestrians are fined for jay-walking or walking dangerously. If these conditions prevailed for both drivers and pedestrians in the United Kingdom, there would be far fewer casualties from buses and other vehicles in London. This positive outcome is certainly possible, but this would require some leadership and action from both the Mayor of London and Members of Parliament.

Why should it make a difference to road accidents if a country is 'democratically developed'? Surely any country with lots of traffic and lots of pedestrians will have issues with accidents which may or may not be affected by the laws in place. I don't see that you have given any evidence that countries which automatically blame the driver have lower accident rates (and is this still enforced where the person killed stepped out without not looking and the driver was in no way responsible). Or that countries which have jay-walking rules have a) less jay-walking and b) fewer accidents. I lived in New York for a while and saw some incredibly bad driving and a lot of jay-walking in a city where jay walking is illegal.

My sister's best friend where we were children chose to commit suicide by waling in front of a lorry on a very busy road with fast moving traffic - are you really saying that that driver (who was incredibly traumatized about killing a child) should have been jailed?

Oxford Street has always had too many people (100,000 every day, and up to 29,000 an hour according to the report you linked to). I'd hate to drive along it. The chart in that report shows that the accident rate is decreasing, although it still looks like 25 or so people are killed every year , which is obviously 25 too many. It would be great to pedestrianize it however Oxford Street needs all those people in order to be successful, and a large number of them arrive by bus (and many of them go up and down the road by bus, as I have on many an occasion).

If buses are hitting pedestrians in the road, not on the pavement, not on zebra crossings, not at bus stops, but in the road, its generally because the pedestrian has got in the way of the bus. Should the bus swerve away into the crowds on the pavement? Should it slam on its breaks hard and seriously endanger all of the people on the bus, the ones who didn't step in front of a bus? You don't know shit about driving a bus do you?

I'm guessing most of you drive, so you must've had people leaping out in to the road in front of you. Even at a zebra crossing, as a pedestrian you've got to use the green cross code (as another poster suggested). I always stop and take a look at a zebra crossing - not all drivers stop, some idiots are on mobile phones, some are 18 years old and ergo filled with testosterone, some aren't quite on the ball - but it's far easier to stop a car than a bus. I think some people just take it for granted that all traffic will stop - which of course legally it should, but use your common sense first!

Where I live for example there's a funny driving rule whereby on some roads you must automatically give way to traffic coming from the right - even if you're on a busy road and they're coming from a dirt track. Now, if I'm on that dirt track, I come to the end of the road and assess the situation. I don't want to be in a hospital bed claiming "but I had the legal right of way!". That's just plain daft! I always let trams go first or buses that are pulling out, you may be in the right, but do you really want to get hit by one?

Please read the London Assembly's "Streets Ahead" Report prepared by Cllr Victoria Borwick. It is available for download on the London Assembly website (legacy.london.gov.uk/assembly/reports/transport.jsp). Page 14 shows clearly that there have been over 1000 pedestrian casualties and over 200 pedestrians killed or seriously injured on Oxford Street since 2000. That's one street only 1.5 miles long, and buses (320-400 of them per hour) are essentially the only vehicles on that street. Oxford Street is Europe's busiest shopping street.

Justthefacts has it correct. My next trip to London will not include a trip to Oxford Street and I'm forwarding the "Streets Ahead" Report to all my American friends who visit London. That street should have a Black Box warning.

"If buses are hitting pedestrians in the road, not on the pavement, not on zebra crossings, not at bus stops, but in the road, its generally because the pedestrian has got in the way of the bus."

You don't know shit about the rules of the road, do you?

Human beings on foot are allowed to cross the road.

Being on the road isn't proof that you deserve to be run over, or that the person who ran you over wasn't at fault.

"Should it slam on its breaks hard and seriously endanger all of the people on the bus, the ones who didn't step in front of a bus?"

Are you suggesting that if a person steps onto the road in front of a bus the bus driver should just plough on into them?

I can't fucking believe this. You actually, genuinely think that pedestrians who step onto the road deserve to die.

Terrifying.

As for "got in the way of the bus"

People are more important than buses. Buses don't just get to run them down because they dare to get in their way.

I sincerely hope you don't drive. You really sound like a maniac.

Erm, did you read the post? Who made any comments about deserving to die (other than you you loon)?

Answer my question. Say you're a bus driver, tootling along, someone literally appears on the road in front of you. You have three options, you slam on the breaks very very hard, which could easily kill or injure your passengers, you can swerve, which in a built up city centre will cause carnage on the pavement/other side of the rd etc, or you can...unfortunately and regrettable hit the pedestrian.

Or you can sit and rant on a forum, wringing your hands because you've never driven a bus and don't know how it works, and not even answer a simple question, choosing instead to make things up to then call terrifying.

(People are more important than buses. Like the people already on the buses, you seem to have no care at all for them. You really sound like a maniac you do, I hope you don't walk anywhere, you make a mental pedestrian)

spidookly, are you acquainted with the poster called stubbornhubby at all?

professional, "over 200 pedestrians killed or seriously injured on Oxford Street since 2000"

I hate conflated statistics given like this (not at you, at the ones who publish them)

how many killed?
how many seriously injured?
what does seriously mean in this context?

and how many killed-or-seriously-injured on a comparable stretch of city street anywhere else in the UK over the same period?

it may well be that Oxford Street is the most dangerous for pedestrians in the whole of the UK per bus-mile/pedestrian, but those statistics don't prove it!

I don't live in London but I do have a massive issue with buses. Often here (normal city in the UK) they are either totally empty or totally filled, I mean overcrowded. I used occasionally to catch a bus to school and it was like being in hell. Children were quite regularly injured or killed in accidents involving buses.

Now I don't use them unless there's literally no other option but encounter them while driving and walking. They are mainly, not exclusively but mostly driven by absolute b*stards round here. I don't know what makes them so aggressive but we have a crossing by t eh bus station, and it is just a road, no markings, and most mornings on the way to school there is a solid queue of buses there, stopping in the middle of the crossing, so no one can get by, VERY reluctant to let you cross even though it's bloody hard to cross there and loads of children walk this route.

It's like they are trying to kill you. Seriously that's how it feels and I'm not known for my general paranoia. They also fill you up with disgusting fumes that linger for minutes making my children cough.

I can't stand buses. I think the streets would be safer and cleaner and nicer without them.