Kirstie Allsopp in twitter row with NCT

[DuelingFanjo]

Sorry for the DM link.

what do you think about this?

Personally I think my NCT class covered C-sections very well, though there was an emphasis on 'natural' birth through-out the course. I was glad of the C-Section info when I was signing papers for the possibility, though in the end didn't need one.

Sadly my experience (Midwives not checkinghow dilated I was, No gas and Air for ages, Having waters broken, Spinal at 10 cm dilated, episiotomy and so on) has made me wonder if I would want to attempt a more natural birth next time - I am worried that I will be too scared to try.

Do you think she is right though, are women who have C-sections being made to feel like failures?

"Thank God for modern advances."

Yes - but it's a shame that the reduction in poor neonatal outcomes has been achieved at the cost of huge numbers of avoidable surgeries.

I repeat - in some hospitals in the UK fewer than HALF of women are having normal deliveries. Tens of thousands of women are going home every year to care for their new babies while recovering from major birth injuries caused by abdominal incisions and by the use of instruments. I don't see this state of affairs as a 'great modern advance'.

Actually it's a bit of a dogs dinner. Where else in our health service would be tolerate so many healthy people having expensive, painful and avoidable treatment?

"Today these are prevented by a planned ceasarian for a breech presentation.Please correct me anyone if I am wrong."

Today scans would tell us which breech babies could safely be delivered vaginally and which would be better delivered abdominally. Well, they would do if a flawed trial of vaginal breech vs c/s for breech in 2000 hadn't resulted in a wholesale recommendation that all women with breech babies in the UK be offered (read 'pressured into') a c/s, so that there are now not enough experienced practitioners to offer these women a safe choice in how they deliver. Now that the original trial has been largely discredited and superceded by better designed studies showing that with careful selection and with an experienced doctor or midwife, mothers carrying breech babies are just as likely to have a good outcome following a vaginal birth as following a c/s.

"The only form of foetal monitoring then was the trumpet shape foetal stethescope, which the MWs listened to the foetal heart rate by applying to your bump.Your contractions were timed by their watches."

At least this type of monitoring required them to be in the room with you, unlike continuous electronic monitoring which allows busy midwives to leave mothers alone for long periods of time and still claim to be monitoring their labours, something which is linked to higher rates of c/s in healthy mothers, without any improvement in neonatal outcomes.

I think that the problem with the NCT is that your experience of them can vary greatly depending on who you get leading your classes.

I moved half way through our classes so did some in my old town and some in my new town and the difference was massive. So I can well believe how some say the NCT are awful, irresponsible, pushing the 'natural' way and so on and others will think just the opposite.

If the NCT is of the same mindset as the sort of women you see on "Home Birth Diaries" then I daresay it does indeed make women who have c-sections feel like failures.

A woman on "Home Birth Diaries" actually said the other day "I know that people say that all you should be worried about it having a healthy baby but I don't look at it like that, I'd feel cheated if I couldn't have a natural birth".

She got her natural birth in the paddling pool in her front room so of course she felt incredibly successful (and smug) by the end of the programme.

I completely agree with Kirsty. Our NCT class was a complete joke with a patronising woman offering out of date and dangerously inaccurate information (as confirmed by the qualified doctors attending the course). No advice on c-sections, bottle feeding etc but plenty of talk about the evils of the medical profession, midwives and doctors ?out there to get you? with their evil epidurals, fetal monitoring and injections to deliver placenta and the most evil of all: the c-section. One of the ladies was told afterwards by the teacher that she had ?failed? to give birth naturally as she had to have an emergency section due to placental abruption! And don?t even get me started on the roasting one of the mums got when she told she was planning to bottlefeed her baby...

I thought about reporting the teacher to the NCT but after hearing similar stories from some of my friends about their NCT courses decided just to write off the experience, especially as all of us who attended the course were intelligent enough to ignore what the teacher told us and we all laugh about the ridiculousness of it now.

I?m sure there are some very good, responsible NCT teachers out there but as an organisation it really needs to sort itself out so that the courses offered are standardised as to their format and content and provide up to date, accurate and balanced information by well informed individuals.

And by the way, I breastfed, baby led weaned etc. Not that it should be relevant to any of this.

Old thread
Didn't realise until I came across a post that sounded like me
Then realised it was me

slippyshoes I'm really sorry you had such a disappointing experience of antenatal classes but please do contact NCT if you feel your antenatal teacher was not doing a good job. I absolutely agree that NCT courses should provide up to date, accurate and balanced information, and if this isn't happening than NCT needs to know so that something can be done, but how are they to know if you don't give any feedback?

NCT were an absolute waste of time. Full of smugs who would rather eat their own arm than have any intervention.

I have mixed feelings about this. On the one hand it just feels like KA whipping up a bit of publicity for herself because maybe its a bit quiet on the old programme presenting front, on the other hand I do feel she has a bit of a point.

I attended NCT classes and unfortunately although the people were lovely didn't make any lasting pals as they were all on the other side of town. We did cover Csections and as I ended up with an emergency one did get some useful advice about that which was to ask for time to make a decision about it as DH was anti and I was prepared to do whatever the medical professionals deemed necessary

I did feel there was a bit of a subtext about natural birth being best and I do remember feeling a bit jealous of a couple of the other mums who managed water births ( DH enjoyed the tip about bringing his swimming trunks and had to be coerced out of the pool once it became obvious that gas and a pool wasn't going to hack it for pain relief)

I also ended up bottle feeding because DS had a tongue tie and I couldn't cope and I felt enormously guilty about that.

Something they did do which was brilliant was arrange coffee mornings for new mums in the area, oh that and the sales

Slippyshoes - it's essential to complain to NCT direct if you think the teacher was giving dangerous and outdated information - you can't assume the doctors on the course are right about this, but your complaint deserves to be dealt with.

I am an NCT breastfeeding counsellor and part of my role is to deliver a breastfeeding session. Occasionally, I get a question from a medical person in the group, because something I have said conflicts with something they have learnt. I am absolutely fine about that, as while I am confident with my information, I'm not perfect and can get things wrong (though actually I can't remember any time when someone in the class was right on a technical matter and I was wrong....but it could happen some day).

I have never heard of an NCT course omitting c-section, but it's true we don't cover much on formula feeding, for sound reasons. This is transparent - the session is 'the breastfeeding session'.

If you have concerns and complaints, why post to mumsnet only? NCT deals with complaints and will certainly thoroughly investigate any reports of inaccurate/dangerous info and judgmental attitudes. I don't understand why you would not do this. You are a customer. You paid for the course. It's like anything else you buy!

Yes, she is right, the NCT class made me feel like a failure when I ended up having to have a c-section (like maybe I should have just kept on trying for a vaginal birth).
But that's nothing to how bad you feel if you try and fail to breast feed. The phrase "doing the best for your child" kept going round in my head and I felt like I had failed at a mother whilst still on the starting blocks.
10 years later, i can just about rationalise all this but only because I have dedicated years to doing everything I can for my son.

theoriginal, sorry you had a less than good experience. But lets take your points:

"the people were lovely didn't make any lasting pals as they were all on the other side of town."
How is that something NCT can do anything about?!

" We did cover Csections and as I ended up with an emergency one did get some useful advice about that which was to ask for time to make a decision about it as DH was anti and I was prepared to do whatever the medical professionals deemed necessary"
That sounds good and helpful.

"I did feel there was a bit of a subtext about natural birth being best"
Was this the class members or the teacher? Did the teacher explain that there are sound health reasons why a straightforward birth with no surgery/intervention is preferable and that it is what most women want? Most women come to NCT classes wanting a straightforward birth that they recover from speedily and in good health. That's not a 'subtext' but a fact. There is no 'moral' superiority about it :)

" and I do remember feeling a bit jealous of a couple of the other mums who managed water births "
Your jealousy is not something NCT can prevent - but feelings about the birth and after the birth can be talked about and resolved, and NCT has postnatal groups that deal specifically with this.

"I also ended up bottle feeding because DS had a tongue tie and I couldn't cope and I felt enormously guilty about that."

Again, NCT cannot do anything to change your feelings....I hope you were assured that breastfeeding counsellors understand the complexity of women's feelings around feeding, we don't judge, we know the sadness that can come with breastfeeding that does not work out, but we don't cause it.

I turned up to my first NCT class (having paid, cheque cashed) to be told they were over booked and there was no room

And when dd was 2 months old I was invited to anNCT coffee morning, where I was asked to leave as I was bottle feeding.

I think that the NCT generally has a reputation for being run by a bunch of lentil weavers. There will ultimately be variations between the way the material they disseminate across the land is delivered depending on individual tutors and some will be more hardline than others but generally I'd say that the NCT has an agenda to promote natural birth and breastfeeding as the ideal. If you demur from this, I don't think you'd really fit in, or would be particularly welcome.

If the stuff the NCT peddle makes women who have c-sections and bottle feed feel like failures then I'm sure the NCT thinks, "if the cap fits". Whether women who have c-sections and bottle feed allow themselves to feel like failures of course is another thing entirely.

Personally, I'd stick to NHS classes, reading around/watching TV/videos etc and the subject/issues and informing myself that way and sharing experiences with other woman. You won't go far wrong with that.

NCT is far too political for me.

I would imagine that the point she is trying to put across her view that she's been made to feel a failure because of her c-section is because she never "fails" at anything she tries.

i think it's more her personality than the NCT's standpoint - they encourage women to get the birth they want and deserve - often having to battle health professionals. but they wouldn't blast someone for having a c-section.

it's not failure - it's just a way of getting the baby out safely.

kirsty has the kind of personality where everything has to be perfect. so if her vision of a perfect birth was scuppered by the c-section then she's probably got a lot of ill-feeling about it and she needs to seek help to close that in her own mind.
it doesn't mean that her c-sections were in any way failing herself or her body, and certainly not failing her children! but that might be how she views it and is struggling with it.

Very old thread but a boring old chestnut anyway. Kirstie allsop has c sections and then tries to guilt trip women who have had natural births by making them feel they can't feel good about it

As for the NCT- my classes provided info on csections but the emphasis was on natural birth using non invasive pain relief Because this is what the clients wanted from the classes. Our first session was very clear that the teacher would focus on the topics the group wanted. As a group we all wanted a big focus on relaxation and breathing techniques and that's what we got. The teacher told us that she would do this with all groups, but sometimes people want more info on epidurals or other things so she just adjusts the balance. Out of our group, one mum had a c section and a couple opted for epidurals but none of them complained afterwards - they knew what they were buying into with the NCT and the fact that one ended up with medical complications needing a csection and that two chose to have a more medicalised birth because they wanted epidurals did not make them suddenly do a u turn and decide they were anti NCT. If you don't agree with what the NCT stands for then don't join- no one holds a gun to your head! You get ante natal care, advice and often classes free of charge through the NHS anyway. The NCT is open about its aims and it really annoys me when people sign up to it and then blame the organisation because they didn't have a natural birth!

I'm afraid to say my experience of the NCT was not positive, either. On our course our teacher (no medical training) argued with one of the mums (an anaesthetist consultant) about the epidural statistics, dismissing her facts as biased (!). Later on, after birth, we were emailed information (without asking) about breastfeeding by one of the local NCT people which was wholly one sided and demonised formula feeding to the extent that one of the mothers (who had tried and failed to breastfeed) was crying over it when we met up for a coffee.

I, too, felt like complaining about this to NCT but at the time had too much on my hands, dealing with a newborn and (shock horror, failed mother alert!), recovering from an emergency c-section. Though I did manage to breastfeed (despite information on our NCT course being that sections result in failure to bond with your baby and breastfeed...) which meant that at least I ticked one of the NCT boxes.

nicklebabylyinginamanger you make a good point. Truth be told, Kirsty probably did want a non medicalised water birth lying in a darkened room with whale music piped in but got a c-section instead so feels cheated and has had a bit of a hard time coming to terms with it. NCT probably really grates on her. If she'd had her ideal natural birth she'd probably be the smuggest of the smug NCT brigade.

Before I had my first pregancy, I knew virtually nothing of the NCT and I was blissfully unaware of the bottle v breast debate. Maybe I'd heard of it, but it wasn't in my consciousness.
Unless you have lots of pregnant friends or you have been TTC for a while, then what normal person knows about any of this stuff.

Then along comes the NCT and Gina Ford, and I have a double whammy of guilt.

Of course, with what i know now, I would have avoided the NCT, except if I had wanted a postnatal group for maternity leave coffee mornings.

NCT has a particular philosophy which most people know about. If you don't go along with it, don't get involved.

MrsRudolph, PM me if you want to give me details about being asked to leave a postnatal group for formula feeding and I will investigate. This is against policy and I am astonished it happened. Plenty of people use bottles and formula in NCT! Whoever told you this would be put right.

(Just thought: Was it perhaps a specific breastfeeding support group?)

KA seems to be making a career out of making people mostly women feel shit about themselves. Your home, your Christmas, your family are incomplete without a fortune's worth of handcrafted tat. Gilded pears anyone?

biscuits - I have been asked in a class 'I'm having a c-section and I worry about being able to breastfeed.' I share with these questioners the facts - that a section may impact on breastfeeding (because of mothers' difficulties in getting comfortable position; possible separation of mother and baby; reasons related to the reason for the section etc) but there are many ways to overcome this, and I say what they are. I am pretty sure all bfcs would approach this the same way.

Hi - I am an antenatal teacher with the NCT and always teach c/s in classes, as do all the teachers I know. I realise some people have had bad experiences and don't want to dismiss them all out of hand, but it is true to say that we can't cover EVERYTHING in class. I don't think the NCT is doing anything wrong by encouraging women to have as natural birth as possible, this is what the NHS is also increasingly doing so it's not like the NCT is going off on some weird tangent. I teach informed choice, ie know what your options are, know what it means to make certain choices, don't go into it blind and then regret it later. I also put a lot of emphasis on postnatal relationships and support as I think this can be when NCT classes can really come into their own.
By the way, I also get really angry when I hear that the NCT is somehow anti c/s as I myself had both my children by this method, both elective, and I was over the moon with both births. My experience was my experience and I do not "promote" c/s because of it, but I would take on anyone who could suggest that I was "anti".
I think Kirstie has a lot of her own issues over this. Whoever said that everything in her life has to be "perfect" is spot on in my opinion. She is obviously lost somewhere in the anger stage of the "grief" (ie loss) cycle...