Kirstie Allsopp in twitter row with NCT

[DuelingFanjo]

Sorry for the DM link.

what do you think about this?

Personally I think my NCT class covered C-sections very well, though there was an emphasis on 'natural' birth through-out the course. I was glad of the C-Section info when I was signing papers for the possibility, though in the end didn't need one.

Sadly my experience (Midwives not checkinghow dilated I was, No gas and Air for ages, Having waters broken, Spinal at 10 cm dilated, episiotomy and so on) has made me wonder if I would want to attempt a more natural birth next time - I am worried that I will be too scared to try.

Do you think she is right though, are women who have C-sections being made to feel like failures?

We covered cs fairly thoroughly in our NCT classes in Jan. I'd signed up for the course expecting to be dictated to on the 'right' and 'wrong' way to give birth / feed etc... but actually felt that I was given a fairly balanced, factual response to questions and it just kept coming back to 'doing what works for you' - i.e. if bf doesn't work then don't do it, if you need pain relief here are the various options, if you need a cs here's what to expect.

The whole course felt like I was being given back the right to decide how I wanted the experience to be. After months of being treated like a number by most of the (admittedly over worked) midwives I've seen, it was reassuring. Just need the baby to make an appearance now...

Neither the NCT or the NHS did any part of a class on this. My first Child was an emergency c-section.

My only feelings about it now is that I am glad we live now and here where this sort of intervention is possible. Two thirds of women used to die from complications arising from child birth...

At the time, I spent a lot of time trying to work out what happened. NCT books were very useful.

I had my second child naturally. I was surprised about how difficult this was to do. The hospital would only 'allow' it if they 'let' me. I had more check ups.

Personally, having done both, I think we are lucky to have the choice!

Sorry but the post who called someone a nutter for allowing her husband to help with letdown? wtf? And what- my baby couldn't suckle, I dried up before I began. DH helped and I could at least express for 8 weeks which massively helped him as he's dairy allergic and has weight gain issues. I really don't give a shit about being a little 'weird' in the privacy of my own home if it has implications for my child's health.

'I recon I am the oldest and poorest person in my NCT group. Plus I have the smallest house.' DF I'm not the oldest but same here for poorest and smallest house! Also, despite not actually being particularly lentil-weavery I am the closest to a lentil weaver in my group!

Same here, as far as I can tell none of the others are co-sleeping for example.

I think a lot depends on your NCT instructor. I was told all the interventions that could lead to c-section and lo and behold - they were right - almost like a road map to my first. I think what they try to do is give you the ammunition to say hold it, slow down to the health care professionals - wish I had taken that advice a little more to heart. I was called back to the class and could at least share this with them, showed them how to bath my baby too .

Never was the natural way pushed though - just lots of info about various choices and what they could mean.

I had a trial labour followed by emcs and like Unrulysun I would be dead otherwise. however back on the ward when I told one of the nurses she said 'what a shame' which upset me, plus i was on a ward full o of first time mothers and a researcher was asking them all about their birthing experiences but left me out as I hadn't had a natural birth.

Once I was home and attended a mother and baby group there was negative talk about women who had CS so i've always felt I needed to explain that I had an emcs. In fact I had worst of both worlds in that I had 48 hours of labour followed by a emcs

When I was pregnant with my first child, I called the local NCT lady to enquire about classes. When she asked if I was planning a natural birth, I replied that I was having a planned section for medical reasons. her answer (and I quote) was "We don't do classes for people like you." in the sniffiest tone possible.

Never bothered with the NCT after that.

C/sections not covered in my nct classes 10 years ago. Infact, when we went for our meet-up at the teacher's house about 6 weeks after the births, not one of the six of us in the class had anything like a straightforward birth. We were all first timers and 30+.

My NCT class birth experiences were totally representative

1 x HB - water birth
1 x EMCS
1 x Forceps
1 x Kiwi
1 x Ventouse (ME!)
1 x hospital natural birth

Straight from central casting!

Ha!

Mine were 1 x hb (but then had to go in with retained placenta)

1 x failed hb and venthouse

1 x failed hb and c/section

1 x crash section

1 x planned hospital birth and venthouse

1 x planned hospital birth without intervention

So - tell a lie - one of us had the kind of birth she'd planned.

I'm with you crystalglasses . Let's promise ourselves we won't feel guilty for having the operations that saved our and our babies' lives, but thrilled that we are still here and that our babies are healthy and happy. Mine is snoring away next to me right now.

My NCT classes spent one entire session on sections and what happens, who is present, etc. I felt that we received a lot of helpful information, and while the slant is on doing things naturally (surely you know that when you sign up for NCT classes?!) the section stuff was pretty neutral.

Out of 9 of us, one had an EMCS, one a home birth, two of us were induced for medical reasons and the rest were pretty uncomplicated spontaneous births in MWLUs or hospital.

Isn't that the point? The NCT are teaching for informed choice. They're not telling you how to do things, just what options there are available to you. At the end of the day, your birth is about you, well, mine were, not about what some person told me to do. I think if anyone feels guilty about having a c section or bottle feeding then it's their own guilt, not anyone elses, I don't feel guilt for bottle feeding two of mine at all, I don't feel guilty for my epidural either and I'm sure I wouldn't feel guilty for a section had I had one.

At the end of the day, Kirstie Allsopp has ishoos that are her own if she feels stigmatised for having a c section and for that I feel sad, nowt else!

I've had three c sections and couldn't give a monkey's as have more improtant things to worry about.. so should Kirtie

i wanted a natural home birth and was almost pushed to this at NCT I'm sure it wasn't meant but thats how it felt. it was though what I wanted. I ended up having to have an emergency c section due to fetal distress after 26 1'2 hours of established labor and only 4 cm dilation. when I went back to NCt afterwards was made to feel like iI should have worked harder did something wrong etc

I'm afraid I didn't "do" NCT at all after I met so many mums that had and seemed to be under so much pressure to be perfect...

...perhaps I wouldn't have needed an emergency c-section if i'd been "better informed" - perhaps we weren't really both that close to popping off and a lesson on balls and pools would have made all the difference...

and as some of my old friends say I really was so lucky to not have had to "do that whole birth thing"

It took me ages to recover and I missed a lot by being incapacitated, but I'm really pleased I have my little girl...its just taking even longer to get over the inferiority complex and contemplation of a second...forget it!!!

Our NCT covered csec by getting out a Playmobil operating theatre set and talking about how many people there might be in the room and their roles. This was of no use to me when I ended up with an emcs.

re: asking couple to share birth experience. i am one of those parents who faciliates NCT classes and had an emergency c-birth followed by vaginal births. i do cover c-birth. as previously stated, i ask couples to come when their babies are about 6-8 weeks old and I base my 'invites' on 1. are both partners (if applicable) able and willing to speak in front of a group? 2. are both partners going to open up to the group without glossing over or frightening people 3. is the baby up for a visit to such a large group. I intentionally try to bring in couples who have laboured & who have had positive experiences overall whether they give birth unmedicated or medicated, after induction or spontaneous labour, by vagina or abdominally.

one problem for me about perceived stigma relates to language as well... if babies weren't 'delivered' but born and if women weren't 'sectioned' but gave birth by Caesarean it would be a sign of respect to mothers who are generous enough to give the world new people. after my own caesarean i was not stigmatizedmy 6 maternal cousins were all born by Caesareanbut i did resent being 'a section' or just another 'patient'.

"one problem for me about perceived stigma relates to language as well... if babies weren't 'delivered' but born and if women weren't 'sectioned' but gave birth by Caesarean it would be a sign of respect to mothers who are generous enough to give the world new people."

That's a good point, actually. Even though we (probably) don't think about the language we use, subconsciously words form our impressions and prejudices. When I had my third child recently, an assistant at my sons nursery asked "Did you have the baby yourself?". Knowing that she was if I had a natural or ceasarian birth and slightly annoyed by her choice of words, I feigned ignorance and said "I didn't use a surrogate mother, if that's what you're asking". She replied that she was asking if I'd had a section. I changed the subject and refused to answer.

I am not ashamed of having a section and I have never bought into the idea that one method of birth is better or worse than another. Had my medical condition allowed it, I would have been like the majority of women and would have gone through labour. It wasn't really an option for me, so I had elective sections. I think that pain relief, sections et al as well as better understanding of the natural birth process have all contributed to the decline in maternal and neo-natal morbidity and, therefore, we shouldn't judge others just because they had a different birth to us.

I don't think that having a drug-free, intervention-free labour somehow makes the birth more "valid" than having any medical intervention from pain relief to a section. Surely the birth is only a few hours of your life and, as such, is a minor part of becoming a parent? For me, holding my three babies for the first time was the best experience - not how they arrived in the world.

This is not fair.

There are so many NCT members and volunteers working so hard and giving so much of their time to help parents in their community and to raise money to support parents across the UK, then a story like this comes along and gives them a bad name. Somebody who has never heard of the NCT before who may have supported them in the future may now not because of this. "Celebrities" should think more carefully before they criticize a charity because it just poo-poos decades of the hard word in one minute.

My mother had 2 cs and so I wasn't at all concerned about having one myself. It was afterwards that I was on the receiving end of some negative remarks and had I not been stronger I could easily have become depressed about it. There was definitely an element of boasting amongst my acquaintenances about who had given birth the quickest or without any intervention. There were also comments about how mums who had cs found it more difficult to bond or bf. I bonded straightaway and had no difficulty in bfing.

Our NCT instructor was great and covered c-sections in detail. I seem to remember there was a 'what do you know about births' questionnaire that we filled in as a group both before and after the instructor's talk and it was quite an eye-opener! I had taken it for granted that I was relatively well-informed about different kinds of birth, pain relief options, hospital protocol etc, but I learned a staggering amount. I think there was a bias towards trying to do things 'the natural way' but the instructor had four children of her own and was definitely not a judgey-pants! So, a vote of confidence for NCT here, but I can understand experience probably depends a lot on the instructor.

Still firm friends with the group mums, too - half of us are on second babies now and finding out there is a lot more to life than birth

I ended up with an emcs and can't say I felt a failure. After 28 hours of labour I just felt relieved when it was recommended. End in sight

Our NCT classes only covered c-sections in a very basic and negative way:
We had to discuss a number of scenarios ending in a c-section, and then the teacher told us why it wasn't necessary in each of them.

We were told that women had been giving birth naturally for thousands of years and that births were being unnecessarily medicalised.

Of course, women have also been dying in childbirth for thousands of years and the great turnaround in the last hundred years or so is due mostly to medical advances, not NCT relaxation techniques.

There is no doubt that a natural birth is preferable but sometimes natural isn't possible. I am tremendously grateful for living in an age where medical professionals were standing by in case things went wrong.

I think most mothers who have c-sections tend to feel more defensive than guilty. You do get asked to explain why it was necessary.

I also bottle fed and this wasn't covered at all. For medical reasons I couldn't breastfeed (I got no milk). A lot of women are in similar situations, and I think the NCT could have covered the basics of bottles without losing the message that breast is best.

at "Did you have the baby yourself?"