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NHS reforms- anyone else as disbelieving as I am?

319 replies

nowwearefour · 17/01/2011 22:10

What on earth is going on here? Privatisation by stealth? I know what- let's take the focus off the patients and the healthcare and put it on re-organising ourselves.AGAIN. how brilliant. anyone care to help me see what the benefits are of this?

OP posts:
taintedpaint · 18/01/2011 12:43

I'm not saying the deficit is not real, not at all, and nowhere in my post does it state that.

jamtodaybrighton · 18/01/2011 12:51

Chil1234, Most of us think that people working for the NHS already try to do the best for patients without being subjected to price pressures - they have lots of motivation, they dont need the motivation created by pressure to survive in a marketplace. Why should they be under pressure from shareholders, whose overriding interest is their dividend? We should value our NHS staff, and make sure there are enough of them to provide the standards of care we all want. While Cameron is breaking his promise about the NHS and letting Lansley dismantle it, there are not enough midwives. Cameron won't honour his pledge before the election to create 3000 more midwife posts, and the general secretary of the RCM is very unhappy about it. Welcome to the Big Society.

erebus · 18/01/2011 13:03

Q: (from earlier)..."Whilst reluctant to get into the middle of this hate-fest... as long as the principle remains that healthcare is free at the point of need (prescription charges excluded), does it matter if it's provided by a private company?"

Well, yes it does, as it's an issue of accountability. Many in the general public have no idea how good the NHS is because they've never worked with any other system. Those of us who have, shudder.

I will cite my example. I worked for many years in Australia, as an radiographer. I worked (as a backpacker) in a typical 'practice', which is to say on a local high street. I was directly employed by a group of radiologists (Xray doctors) who rented the buildings and equipment. The patients were all local GP referrals. Although the radiologists could have charged a 'gap fee' (the difference between what their NHS would remunerate per examination and what the market might bear) they didn't because they knew the patients would simply seek out the free or cheapest option.

Well, of the 12 'radiographers' who worked there, only TWO of us were actually properly qualified. Two. The rest had 3rd world qualifications. Genuinely! If you came to us, as a lay-person, you'd actually have no idea how suboptimal your imaging was. You'd have no idea how heavily irradiated you'd been as that 'radiographer' attempted to produce something diagnostic. OK, you say, the radiologists wouldn't accept such 3rd rate work. Yes they would because their report would say 'Imaging was obtained as requested, however, we recommend you patient should have an ultrasound/CT scan/MRI scan..' which we also provided, funnily enough. 'Please refer'. There's no way they'd waste any time or money on repeat imaging when there was $$ still to be made on more expensive imaging. Basic views commanded one fee, 'additional' and 'functional views' more. So guess what? Everyone got all 3 whatever their clinical history as that meant the radiologists could tick 3 boxes in their Medicare (NHS) claim. They formed one of the wealthiest professional groups in Australia as a result of rorting Medicare so summarily. The patient (you) meanwhile remained blissfully unaware of how you were being exploited -in fact, you were telling your mates how thorough they were. Because, naturally, you knew no better.

You say 'That couldn't happen here'... Well, ever wondered how qualified, to British standards, that Eastern European person who did your 'NHS sub-contracted' MRI scan in the back of a van is?? Quite. At my current NHS place of work, due to demand, some MRI scanning is sub-contracted. That private company are sent a bunch of request forms. They choose which they want to scan and send back to us the ones that might be tricky, or take a bit of time, for us to do. They get paid, not only per scan but per reject, too! THEN they have the temerity to send us many of their scans to re-report because the subcontracted South African did such a poor job!

In the NHS we have to meet dozens of standards, our qualifications have to verified and we have to show proof of continuing learning. Many eyes are upon us, all the time.

Watch how soon the private companies bidding for NHS work 'persuade' the government to allow them to drop the onerous and expensive task of hand-checking every worker, ensuring every worker is properly qualified to UK standards: watch how soon these companies are threatening the government with discrimination when a Congolese qualification is questioned as being equal to a UK university one. The government will capitulate because it cannot afford not to.

There are so many ways the NHS could save money now. But the idea that a semi-vegetative elderly person in the end-stages of their lives in the midst of a busy general ward could have the quality of their care 'driven upwards' by spending less money defies logic.

nowwearefour · 18/01/2011 13:09

just to say the first time i have made the threads of the day on the front page. now back to the discussion

OP posts:
Chil1234 · 18/01/2011 13:14

"You do wonder who will be doing the job of the GP when the GPs are all managing -"

I'm not out to have a go but this thread is going to get very one-sided if people with different views don't chip in occasionally.

My own GP is part of a large practice and they employed managers to deal with the non-medical, financial side of things years ago. "Best thing we ever did" according to him and, from a patient perspective, it's a really well-run practice

Many of the comments posted already talk about lack of staff, wards closed down and so forth - and that's after several years of extremely high levels of funding. If the NHS is struggling when funding is so high, is it unreasonable to ask if there's something more fundamentally wrong with the picture than 'cash'?

jamtodaybrighton · 18/01/2011 13:17

I also take people's point about GPs. Despite what has been said, I think access is better to primary care overall, and most GPs are doing a fantastic job. I am sure there is some self-interest from all sides in this, but the greatest self-interested parties are the private healthcare companies, who have been trying to get serious money out of our health sector for some time, and now have their opportunity. Lansley is making out that this is about localism, hence focussing on the trusted local GP. But these healthcare companies are vast, and between them they will divide up the available spoils. They will be advising consortia, with a great deal of control over finance and information, and how they are presented, and so will be able to steer the decision-making. In the Polly Toynbee article, she says that satisfaction with the NHS rose from 55% to 71% under Labour, the highest ever recorded by Ipsos Mori. This makes it hard for Lansley to claim everything is wrong with the NHS and the biggest and most expensive shake-up in its history is the only medicine. Clearly there are other options available to further improve the quality of care, but this government wants privatisation at any cost.

StealthPolarStuckSpaceBar · 18/01/2011 13:22

No problem with you arguing the other side, just don't wan anything aimed at me, not up for it.
If the GPs are employing managers to do the managing, and they are all banding together, how long before they get re-badged as private PCTs.

larus · 18/01/2011 13:22

Chil I think you will find the reason the thread appears one sided is because most people share the same views.

I would say that wouldn't I?

But until/unless others with similar views to yourself start posting it does look that way.

And from my reading of the thread, there are very few comments regarding lack of investment. Most seem to be concerned about the future and not about the past.

msbossy · 18/01/2011 13:39

chil1234 I agree that the current funding isn't being spent efficiently but I can't agree that re-organisation at the PCT level, or "competition" is the answer. Changes at the operational level - stronger decision makers, and more analytical and project skilled people in middle management assisting with effective change would help more.

erebus · 18/01/2011 13:43

If we banned ambulance chasing lawyers we'd find a lot less defensive medicine being practiced, too, which has the potential to save millions.

Chil1234 · 18/01/2011 13:46

'Competition' may not be the whole answer but I understand the problem is 'zero alternatives'. The PCT has been the PCT, good, bad or indifferent.

jamtodaybrighton · 18/01/2011 13:49

Chil1234. That's exactly the point - there isnt anything fundamentally wrong. Things have generally been improving, especially where health teams have been allowed to work together with patients to improve patient pathways - and there can be more of this. Its about more collaboration between the health professions, and between health and social care, not about advice from the private healthcare sector.

We could get exactly the same outcome Lansley claims he wants by ensuring that there are more GPs on PCT boards. Simple change - costs nothing - same result - GPs with greater say on commissioning decisions.

But wait - that doesn't give any contracts to the private health care sector...

So email your MP now - the Tory-led government should honour its pledge not to reorganise the NHS, and where are our midwives?

tattycoram · 18/01/2011 13:54

Agree jamtoday, and other clinicians, who could also advise on commissioning decisions

Jaybird37 · 18/01/2011 14:43

I do not imagine that it will save money at all. GPs are not commissioners, which is a specialised job and not necessarily the best use of their skills.

The changeover period is even worse. Half the time the people you email at the PCT have left because, if you worked for a PCT wouldn't you be job-hunting right now? Which means important emails sit in void email accounts and never get seen or dealt with.

The people who are left are overloaded and miserable as sin.

PCTs can already commission from any willing provider - lots of them have contracts with voluntary sector providers for example, to provide preventative healthcare, so that has not changed.

There will be impacts on medical education and most importantly, private healthcare does not have a great track record. When I worked for AvMA (Action against Medical Accidents) about 12.5% of the complaints about medical care that we received were about private healthcare (a massively disproportionate number). This might be because people are more willing to sue a private healthcare provider, or that patients who can afford private healthcare are more articulate and willing to complain, but I think there are structural reasons why they came to us.

For example, private hospitals and doctors who work privately are dependent on each other. The hospitals need the doctors to use their operating theatres so that they can fill their beds and the doctors have limited choices about where they can do private work. The patient is not (usually) a repeat customer, so is bottom of the list in accountability terms.

Also, wards in private hospitals tend not to be as specialised as in NHS hospitals. You will not have the specialist diabetic, or liver ward for instance, just general medical. That means you do not have specialist nurses. But, because the medical care is provided by consultants (usually with one or two junior doctors who could not get a job anywhere else and are not involved in care in a meaningful way) you are much more reliant on nurses than on medical staff to pick up problems.

Maybe Mumsnet would like to invote Andrew Lansley on for a webchat to discuss his plans?

ohanotherone · 18/01/2011 14:52

Since many of the issues affecting people today are actually biopsychosocial issues rather than purely medical issues it seems to me that it is a retrograde step to give GP's the sole responsibility to comission care. The reductionist medical approach cannot solve may of the complex issues that many people face. It would be better to invest in frontline services and gently reduce top management costs by providing admin support to many heath professionals. Concurrently support the integration of health trusts and local councils so that services aren't just health and social care but merged. This way people won't fall between services and services will be developed to provide seamless care for chronically ill people.

Reorganistaion, again, IS THE LAST THING THAT THE NHS NEEDS!!!!!

chandellina · 18/01/2011 14:55

funny how the US was up in arms about the idea GPs could be stripped of their commissioning power, while here the opposite is true.

I don't see why GPs shouldn't be in charge of selecting the tools and services they need to get the job done.

larus · 18/01/2011 15:07

All doctors specialise in different subjects. So not only do some doctors specialise, for example, in being a GP, but they may also have a sub speciality - our GP practice has a maternity/baby specialist, mental health specialist and the One Who Fits the Coil .

I just don't see how GPs are best placed to commission specialist hospital services that are outside their field. How will they be able to find the time to keep up to date, to be sure they commission the right things? Some hospital consultants/private firms may well be more proactive than others in promoting their subject or their preferred way of investigating.

Swedes1 · 18/01/2011 15:27

The NHS should be a fluid one-stop shop for patients. The jelously observed separateness of GPs, PCTs and hospitals. If you are pregnant, why do you need to go and see your GP? Why can't you just book directly with your chosen hospital and make an appt to go straight for a week 12 booking visit/scan if you don't feel you need/want to talk to your GP?

Swedes1 · 18/01/2011 15:37

The jealously observed separateness of the function of GPs, PCTs and hospital is completely unfathomable to most patients. Lots of patients fall down the gap between their GP who has referred them and the hospital who is not yet looking after them.

Want2bSupermum · 18/01/2011 15:53

I currently live in the US and DH is due to be relocated to the UK by the end of April when I will be around 7.5 months along. My obn and I called up the self-referral line after I was told they would be able to answer my questions. I am super happy with my obn and she was a great fan of the NHS until this morning at least.

We called from her office, I explained my situation and asked what information was needed. I was told that I would need to register first and they asked if I had an address in the UK. I told them I don't have a UK address right now but was calling to find out what I needed to bring over and if possible, ask a few questions. She told me I would need to be registered first before she could tell me what is needed. I then asked her what information I would need to register. I was told I would need a UK address in a rather sarcastic tone.

At this point my obn was open mouthed and interupted. We got to speak to a manager who did answer our questions as to what information is needed but wanted us to book an appointment so we could ask the additional questions. My obn and I were happy with this but the manager then said we would have to register first. This we can't do because I don't have a UK address! My obn explained that she wanted to ensure nothing was missed out and wanted to speak with someone to find out how things are done in England. The lady proceeded to tell my lovely obn that as a consultant she should know! My obn said she was saddened that the NHS was so awful and told me that this morning changed her opinion of the NHS.

After this phone call I think the problem is not the NHS itself but the bad eggs in it. Attitudes such as this should not be tolerated. The only change I would make is to bar these miserable people from working in the healthcare profession. From experience, bad people are like a cancer that needs to be cut out to stop the spread. After today I pity the good NHS employees who are forced to work with people like the women we spoke to today.

sarah293 · 18/01/2011 16:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Hullygully · 18/01/2011 16:03

WE NEED AN MN CAMPAIGN

Northernlurker · 18/01/2011 16:10

I am an NHS manager. I feel utterly sick about this. If these reforms are carried through to the fullest extent the landscape of healthcare in this country will be changed beyond all recognition and not for the better.
There's a good chance I will lose my job in the next 3-5 years. That doesn't worry me tbh. I have very transferrable skills, have a decent length of service and dh also has a good job. What scares me is the health system I will be being treated in and that my children will be treated in. This is NHS demolition time and if you don't stand up and be counted now you will regret it later.

nowwearefour · 18/01/2011 16:14

Hear Hear to mumsnet campaign

OP posts:
Want2bSupermum · 18/01/2011 16:17

I hope that is the case Riven. The attitude today didn't leave me too confident in the ability of the NHS to manage my pregnancy.

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