Students Protests - University Fees

[EggFriedRice]

I absolutely applaud the protests by young students against the rise in university fees, why should they put up with the blatant lies by the Liberal Democrats, I voted for them, I believed what they told me during the run up to the election, now I feel betrayed, like so many other voters, how could they say one thing and then do the opposite? I witnessed today a demonstration by ordinary young people who will be affected by the increase in university fees, I witnessed the heavy police presence, the batons ready to charge, the police filming ordinary young people who have been betrayed, I witnessed the sad state of the UK,

Dear LRD. Perhaps I might be ill informed about this particular situation. Perhaps you should know that you have no idea how lucky you have it there. There are very many countries in the world that would love to be stuck with your dilema.
Try the fact that in many countries HE is in fact unaffordable to most of the population because huge fees must be paid upfront every year. No chance of repayment once you are finished and get a job.
You should consider yourself privledgedto live in a country where educating your children is even a possibility

Jollydiane - healthcare is not free. Primary schools are not free. Nor secondaries. Nor jobseekers allowance, nor disability benefits, nor maternity pay. Providing for these things (and Higher Education) via our taxes is something we should be proud of. There hasn't been a "sudden crisis" in HE that necessitates cutting teaching budgets by 80% - there has been an international financial crisis caused by the financial services industry itself. Why should we have to stop investing in our mutual future because of what they did? Why not scrap secondary schools then, if you think we need to save money?

Endeavour, what makes you think I don't know how lucky I am?

And what does it have to do with my post?

It sounds, I'm afraid, as if you simply don't like to find you've made a gaffe and offended people more knowledgeable than yourself.

I consider myself immensely lucky to live in this country. So do my friends who're protesting. We want to show how upset we are at the erosion of access to HE, which we think is something really special about this country. As it happens, many of my course mates are American, and so personally, I am very aware that I would hate to see Britain's HE become like the American system.

wow endeavour patronise much?

i love how obvious the daily mail reader types make themselves known on threads like these! especialy on ones about students, 'youths', asylum seekers, politicians and bankers....'oh if only Diana were here!!'

Pity they didn't protest like this when Labour brought in tuition fees. Strange that isn't it. If they think that Labour wouldn't raise the fees also then they are more gullible than they seem.

That isn't a protest, that is a rabble having a riot. Any message is lost with the masked idiots using their fists. To be honest I would rather none of my tax money was used to send any of that lot to university - if indeed that is why half of them are out there.

They have done their cause no good.

Let me set the record straight here for those that are assuming I am being patronising. In order to be patronising I would have to think I am superior to you, however I have said you are lucky to live in a country that still has such low education rates, not a very patronising statement. Plus according to LRD I am obviously not as smart, thank you :)

When I said that the students are ill-informed it meant that do they know what choices the government had to make to arrive at this decision?. Do they know what other cuts where looked at? Would it have been better if government had tried to get the money by cutting down on the NHS more or Old age pensions? To simply protest and riot without a complete picture seems odd. I am not defending any government or any choices they make. Just that I doubt they arrived at this vote without consideration. Perhaps they should have been more forthcoming with what the other options were.
The world just survived a recession and yes the people and banks that caused it got off lightly. To say that the government bailed out the banks is the reason why they have to make all these cuts is true, but imagine what would have happened if they did not bail out the banks? Companies would fold, and hundreds of thousands of jobs would be lost.
So this is going to be a tough pill for students to swallow but it will probably result in a tougher future generation less willing to allow banks and corporations to get away with murder. It will hopefully result in a bigger appreciation for HE and the will to want to make the UK recover enough to make it free for all again. Hopefully if all goes well it will result in a future generation that will curb their spending and understand that unfortunatly you cannot take a bucket of water from a well that only has a cup of water left.
Oneday they will be taxpayers and will force their government to apply spending and tax breaks more fairly, to keep an eye on the banks, to bring in laws that will benefit all.

As for the minority that were breaking windows and attacking the police, I would say that they are not beneficial to their cause or their country.

Thank you to all who answered what some saw as a patronising question with tact and intelligence.
As I do not live in the UK, we see the students rioting and read the headlines saying that tution fees are going up, and we think "Geez this must be serious for them to act that way" So my question was not patronising it was honestly meant as "Is this it?" Yes probably because we would kill for the chance to only repay our studies once we start working. I had to earn my degrees by working simultaneously as I did not come from a rich family.Plus 3 or 4 years of uni here costs much more than it does there. So yes I do apologise if I sounded patronising to some, it was not my intention. It was more a statement of surprise. Your country is lucky, your people are lucky, enjoy it

These "fees" will just hit middle England like they always did. People like me, who has done "relatively" well since uni - but not rolling in it. I could "afford" to pay back fees. Anyone who doesn't earn enough will never have to pay them back.

On the other hand - it is interesting to see what happens when "other people's money runs out".

Of course Labour would have put up the fees! They instigated the report that gave the recommendations!

Why is it so objectional that people should pay to invest in themselves? Life doesn't get handed to you on a platter - you work hard and spend money.

From my understanding the fees are not payable upfront - so no one will have to find the fees in advance;
The fees do not become repayable until you earn over £21k (this figure will rise with inflation). If your pay falls below this level the repayments stop.
The debt will be written off after 30yrs.
£9,000 is the maximum fee, any Uni charging over £6k will have to justify the figure.

I honestly don't see the problem! I did not go to Uni as I had no need to - my career choice didn't call for it - but if I had chosen to go, why should I expect other people to pay for me?

The violence yesterday was carried out by a large "minority". Where is the justification for smashing windows, daubing grafitti on statues, and attacking cars?
I hope the protestors that pulled the police officer from his/her horse and caused serious neck injuries have the book thrown at them.

I am also thoroughly disgusted with the Student Union reps that have been appearing on Breakfast TV this morning REFUSING to condem the violence.

Finally (don't worry, my rant is almost over) for those people who are saying that the Tories have brought this in because they want to keep the poor uneducated - GET A GRIP! Why on earth would any Government instigate a policy that would prevent the country from being a success?! You've been reading too many conspiracy theories!

"Pity they didn't protest like this when Labour brought in tuition fees" because they would have been about, ooh, 4 years old at the time

If memory serves, there were protests, tons of them, just not as violent as these have turned out to be.

Cavemum I too wish the Beeb would stop giving that woman oxygen. She was revealed after the first protest to have been one of the ones up on the roof etc., etc. She's a bloody menace and as much as it pains me to say it - exactly what will have "middle England" turning their backs on this cause. She's the bastard child of "Student Grant" and "Millie Tant"!

Alpine I completely understand that she (didn't catch her name) is not representative of the majority of student's views, but until they stop putting her up for interviews she will continue to spout her bile and be seen as a voice of the students.

I like the way Ed Milliband has refused to say he would overturn the legislation when Labour eventually get back into power (sadly the law of averages says it will happen eventually ). If he really is so anti the fee rise he would have said something along like "we would look at it/consider it". Instead we got the usual evasive answering of "I'm not going to promise anything".
Way to stand up for your principals Ed!

'but until they stop putting her up for interviews she will continue to spout her bile and be seen as a voice of the students.'

that's exactly why they keep putting her on

As I see it, this is just part of a bigger picture, and maybe ( though I hope not ) the beginning of quite a bit of "civil unrest".

University has been promoted as the social ideal in this country, but there is no guarantee that it will lead to a better standard of living for graduates, although this is how it is marketed to a large degree. The cultural emphasis here is to attain a certain standard of living with certain material evidence of that - this is how we are trying to sustain the economy.

We have no industry or manufacturing to speak of, we are developing instead a service industry which depends on some people being able to pay for it in order to support the rest.

Those in the service industries are not paid enough in many cases to afford to live and are topped up by the state.

Shareholders and company owners are under no obligation to re-invest profits into this country, and a huge effort is made to (legally) minimise the amount of income tax these people are supposed to pay back in in order to help sustain the country.

There is a huge attitude of "why should I?" and resentment coming from all quarters - people who are rich feel entitled to keep that wealth for their own benefit, people who are poor don't see why they should have to work long hours in poor conditions for an amount of money that doesn't cover the lifestyle they are told they "should" aspire to, feel bitter and patronised when the "haves" tell them that one doesn't need x, y or z if one can't pay for it through honest toil, and are made to feel guilty for trying to keep up and stop their children from feeling stigmatised by poverty if they pay for "luxuries" out of benefits. At the same time, if they can't find work due to economic crisis in this country it is implied that it is their own fault for not trying hard enough, and that your children will be disadvantaged.

There is so much going on in this country that is contributing to negativity and hopelessness that these protests probably are just a tip of the iceberg.

I also suspect that some of the violence is being engineered in order for the government to be able to bring in more stringent laws regarding protest etc, it is not a paranoid consideration, but a tactic used by other regimes.

In this day and age a government would never get away with scapegoating in the same way that some places could in the last century, so a more subtle approach has to be taken. Our society is being divided into three tiers - the top one has the security of money to distance itself from the other two, the middle tier seeks to protect what it has been able to achieve and wants to preserve a moral perspective while moving up a tier, while the bottom tier feels that is unable to move into the middle tier while being simultaneously told it's their own fault for not trying hard enough.

Quite often the sheer amount of bureacracy involved in "bettering" one's lot is enough to confound people and trip them up.

The really sick thing about all this is that it is because we are a capitalist society first and foremost and culturally seem to value material success above true progress ie improving the emotional intelligence of the populace alongside general education.

What is education now for in this country? Personal enrichment is apparently the privilege of those who don't "need" to earn a living, and other people are supposed to graciously fill the needs of the job market and defer the rest of their lives until a judgement has been made that they won't ever be a drain on the rest of society, which no-one can guarantee.

We don't have a culture of "the greater good" in this country, we have "everyone for himself" and a smattering of "Lord and lady Bountiful with conditions attached".

If parents behave the way our society does as a whole, they would be accused of emotional abuse.

We are dealing now with the legacy of 150 years of technological progress which has accelerated at an exponential rate in the last 40 years, and during which time we have been expected to adapt naturally to it with little knowledge of the actual impact of it all on our society.

Couple this with a tendency we seem to have to go to extremes and panic when faced with negatives, and before long many more people will be throwing collective tantrums as opposed to just sinking into depression, for which people are also judged for not being able to "keep up".

I don't have any answers, these are just my rambling observations.

We all learn how to behave on an individual level, plus we adapt to what we see in society. At the moment I think we will see more protests because we have spent so long being "good" and trusting the government up to a point. Now promises have been broken, politicians seem to be utter hypocrites (do as I say, not as I do) and the media fosters bleakness.

We are told that children need consistency to develop well - isn't society as a whole deserving of the same consideration in order to keep it stable?

What I don't get, is that in one article it said that the government is expecting 60% of the loans not to be repaid. ? So then why raise the fees if you're actually not going to get all the money? Barking

Because it's not really about money.

Agreed Claig.

It's not 60% of the total loans won't be paid back at all, it's 60% of people will not pay back the full amount.

"To say that the government bailed out the banks is the reason why they have to make all these cuts is true"

No it's not.

The reason the Government needs to make these cuts is because it's spending more than it earns every year since 2003.

We're in debt, we're getting deeper in debt and we need to do something about it.

That's why we're cutting.

The bailouts were expensive but they were a one off cost that added a lot to the national debt.

But our debt isn't the real problem right now, our problem is the deficit, the amount by which we plunge further into debt every year. And that has nothing to do with the bank bailouts.

If you are having to pay for your monthly shopping and bills on a credit card as your income doesn't cover them then that is a problem and needs to be fixed.

Bloody hell I have been reading this forum and now I feel the urgent need to make a post for which I am sure I will get blasted to Mars and back for, but here it goes.
If the students believe so strongly in their case why dont they start actions in court?
I honestly cannot respect their argument anymore, as everytime they protest they aimlessly destroy public property, which us taxpayers had to pay for and now have to pay to have fixed.
I work hard to pay my taxes and bills. I wanted a degree so I paid my own way. I am not special, just your average person.
Why do i have to support a person on an appreciation of arts degree which will contribute f all to the wealth of the nation?
Too many meaningless degrees.
Too poor a standard in universities
Too poor a standard in public education
Too many students EXPECTING that the taxpayers must pick up the tab and expect nothing in return. So you dont want to pay back too much on your student loan, why, because that might cramp your style expectations of a BMW etc.
Money is not the solution as the standards in countries like India, Poland, Nigeria etc prove, dedication to education by the student and support form real families is the key.
Lets all be rational here, we have been lucky so far here, reality is something everyone is going to have to start dealing with and working towards a better future. Stop being lazy students show us you will be a generation that will contribute to the system you now hate.

"If the students believe so strongly in their case why dont they start actions in court?"

Because what the Government is doing isn't illegal, you can't take them to court because you think they're being unfair.

"I honestly cannot respect their argument anymore, as everytime they protest they aimlessly destroy public property"

I agree with your feelings about the violence, it's very self destructive and will loose them public support. Though to be honest if I were the Government I'd be making sure that there was violence on the demonstrations for exactly that reason.

"I wanted a degree so I paid my own way."

Did you get your degree here and are you a British national? If so then you would have received some assistance, the amount of which would vary in both amount and directness (i.e. paid to you or the University) since the early 90s.

"Though to be honest if I were the Government I'd be making sure that there was violence on the demonstrations for exactly that reason." - Sorry never thought of that, I can imagine the government is using this tactic, in the process getting people injured and making us look like a bunch of hooligans on the international scene. Really !!!
Secondly yes I am a national, and yes of course I received assistance, but heck its not like the government is taking away the assistance!

"Secondly yes I am a national, and yes of course I received assistance"

So to say "[I] paid my own way" is actually wrong.

And yes there still will be some "assistance" however I think that this is arguably less than previous generations, including my own, received. Coming out of University with a debt higher than the average income was quite inconceivable when I went to University, no for fees alone it's very probable yet alone when you also consider the living expenses.

Maybe this is right and maybe it's wrong but there's going to be some resentment that us older generations had more help and then pull up the ladder behind us now that we're educated.