130000 students at least saying no to this rotten government

[telsa]

Isn't that amazing. Why no posts on it? Here's a great analysis from someone in the kettle.
leninology.blogspot.com/2010/11/spontaneous-massive-and-militant.html

Brillant! - and Ryoko - where do you get off on being so vile.? I don't believe you believe what you are saying.....'only benefits them'. What a pathetic joke - may you live long (and miserably) in the republic of philistines.

Pray tell who do they benefit with their or so special degrees in media studies and gaming culture?.

and don't give me the higher rate of tax crap when/if they make enough money, everyone has to pay tax, why should the working class poor pay tax so some middle to upper class kid can get subbed at uni?.

If you want kids to go to private schools rather then the bog standard paid for by tax ones you have to pay for it yourself so, why shouldn't that continue on to the next level of college and university education.

having 50% of people in the country with a uni degree was all ways one of the most stupid policies of the previous government.

Wasn't it Labour who introduced top up fees?

Telsa - do you know?

Ryoko, you are aware there are other courses right? Say, medical for example.

Yes, Labour introduced top up fees - complete shame on them too. We (me, some of my colleagues and my students) have been fighting this for a long time.

This is such a joke making out all students are doing useless subjects. Why don't you come and spend some time in a university instead of believing all you read in the Daily Mail (indeed why not study Media Studies and find out something about ideology and hegemony). It's a cliche - and, well, 10 years ago, Britain's major industry was meant to be the creative sector - so back then precisely those cited topics were seen as the powerhouses of Britain PLC.

I'm just wondering why you didn't riot when labour introduced top up fees ? ( maybe you did ?)

not only was it a very unpopular decision at the time - it was a complete U-tern on their 2001 manifesto in which they said; "we have no plans to introduce top up fees"

cause for a riot if ever there was one...

I sincerely hope that Ryoko is treated only by doctors who have never wasted taxpayers' money on actually studying medicine, and that his/her children are taught exclusively by teachers who have never been to univesity.

Because, let us not forget, "their education benefits no-one but themselves".

What an idiot.

surely the huge increase in degrees and the student population is a problem though - where is the money to come from for this huge amount. Sounds old fashioned but uni/college education does seem to have been dumbed down and I feel for the more academic kids who will do degrees that actually prepare them more for a job that benefits them and society. why does everyone have to have a degree these days - is it to keep the unemployment rates down and let the kids mess about for a bit longer before they have to truly grow up.

Not everyoine does degrees - about 30% of young people do degrees and part of that is because of the skills required by modern labour - apart from directly vocational stuff (medicine, engineering, architecture etc etc) modern jobs necessitate degree-taught transferable skills, things such as the ability to analyse information, advanced computer skills, digesting and summarising information, extrapolation of conclusions from large quantities of data, creative skills at lay out etc etc.

I would think that there are many more jobs in the media than there are in physics, chemistry, English lit or any of the other 'academic subjects' we hear so much about.

Point taken. I did a non degree 2yr course in media/communication studies with fees paid and a grant and TBH, even then I thought if half of the tax payers knew what many course/studies consisted of they'd probably be out demonstrating themselves.

Thanks for the link to the students dancing, WhoKnew2010. I've posted it on another thread - hope you don't mind?

Ryoko: 'They need to grow up, watching the police beating them over the head was a landmark moment for me, the only time I can remember actually rooting for the rozzers'.

You don't mean you like to see the police beating children over the head do you? Really hope not.

Thanks begonyabampot - yes, I think there must still be many examples of courses where the amount of "free time" and the "academic" requirements may still make taxpayers query the value of the education.

I wonder how student drop out rates have changed over the years ? One used to hear of a significant proportion of first year students leaving their course... One hopes that given financial responsibility falling much harder on students for their choice of course, those who do decide to study are more committed than when "education was free" and dropping out of a course may not have had much more than parental chastisement.

I suppose another option, the graduate tax, could be used to pay for all this education, but wonder how many of those who had their "free education" would now be happy to have such a tax (at say 5% of income) applied retrospectively ?

Actually I'd be happy to be taxed on the fact I have a degree, and I know others would. The point for me about these fee rises is the reason they are being brought in is because this govt is cutting the teaching block grant so that nothing bar STEM subjects get funding. The message that is sending about the value and place of education in our country is frankly scary. And don't give me we need to make cuts argument, these cuts are made after we are supposed to be out of the woods, and thus the new fee structure will not even have begun to reap any benefit so it is a totally poitically motivated move.

Johnhemming claerly needs a lesson in statistical analysis.

The graduate tax was looked at by Browne but didn't he find that it would be years before it would provide the revenue needed to fund universities and there was also a problem with the money being paid to the treasury and not universities

NetworkGuy - when people go to university, they usually come out having learned far more than what's provided by any single subject, and of course they meet people studying all sorts of subjects. Universities are places where, often for the last time in your life, a nuclear physicist can socialise with a sociology student, etc. Often far more learning goes on outside the classroom than you could ever quantify - and when are they supposed to read if they are in class all the time?

IF the cuts are needed, there are certainly changes within the system that could save money: better careers guidance + shorter courses maybe in some cases + salary freezes for staff + more overseas students who pay mega bucks - are the obvious ones.

Most students are extremely committed, and often highly stressed by pressure of finances and deadlines. Making it even harder for them by raising fees makes it much more likely that they will drop out.

And, once again, the whole of society benefits from people who have degrees. Graduate taxes once they are earning over a certain level, ok, but much better to have taxes for everyone that gradually increase as your earnings rise, than artificial cut-off points which are often so unfair. A lot of graduates go into very low-paid jobs, anyway.

Insult me all you like but why should the workers finance peoples further education so they can earn more and in ten years time will be moaning from there glass houses about the feckless unemployed and benefits claimants having the audacity to want a roof over their heads and food in their bellies.

I'm all right jack, they say so fuck the rest of you.

Well it goes both ways mate.

You have a point, Ryoko. But whether people benefit from a free education or not, they certainly shouldn't criticise benefits claimants and the unemployed. Agreed!

We are going nowhere fast by attacking other sections of society.

And workers finance further ed because workers, like everyone else, need doctors, teachers, engineers, architects ...

How insulting to think that workers (like me for instance!) don't want our kids to go to university - or that workers themselves haven't got a degree - after all teachers, engineers etc do actually work you know!

Yes, Kate1956, point taken. Sorry that my post reinforced that idea. It would have been better to write 'tax payers'.

I feel it's important to look at the bigger picture, and for the people who are going to suffer from this government's policies to look at what they have in common, rather than allowing the government to divide and rule us.

Ryolo does have a point. People who have done very nicely thank-you out of the education system often do look down on benefits claimants, while having no idea at all about their situations yet feeling perfectly qualified to judge them.

It's not just judging them it's the whole I'm more entitled to government money then you, how many people who go Uni actually get somewhere or do something useful?.

Saying you should pay for us because we will contribute in the future, and the unemployed/low paid families/disabled should get fuck all because they will never amount to anything is a joke, we are all individuals and none of the well known entrepreneurs in this country went to Uni.

I hope the government doesn't back down, we are all in this together and all that shit, it's only far that everyone gets a smack in the face and the majority of Uni students are still from relatively well off families even if they don't think they are. since the goal posts for what classes as middle and working class keep moving.

Ryoko, the whole point of protesting against the cuts is to allow more people, not fewer, to have the choice of going to uni. So to give the unemployed/low paid families/disabled more choice, not less.

A lot of entrepreneurs didn't go to uni. That's true, but maybe they are exceptionally talented or very driven or simply lucky. They are the exception, not the rule - most people can't do it on their own. That's not to say they have to go to uni - but they deserve the choice.

Nurses, doctors, teachers, IT programmers, housing officers - all go to uni. They're all useful.

Why should everyone get a smack in the face?

It's not about choice, its about cuts, you can't go cutting HB and stuff on the one hand saying we need to save money and it's going to be hard for all of us, and then leave things like higher education alone it makes no sense, in fact if they did that it would just prove the point that the tories hate the poor and like nothing more then kicking homeless people to death etc.

University system is out of control in this country anyway, there are far too many of them and the trying to have 50% of people with uni degrees was a stupid idea in the first place, the entire point of it is elitism, that it is the highest most respected form of education, how is a degree to be seen when an employer has seen at least 50 people that week with at least one degree.