is water boarding torcher?

[ginodacampoismydh]

what do you all think?

ill check on thread later tomorrow but i just wondered what others thought after mixed reactions on question time im [shocked]

I am confused, we are water boarding the Iraqis Saudis and Afghanis to defend ourselves from the Chinese?

seriously this talk of 'you don't know and you don't want to know but be grateful that they do it' is nonsense. they do it in our name so they must be accountable to us and we must decide whether it is acceptable or not but face it and discuss it, you can't ask people to do things that you are not prepared to do yourself, at least in theory. imho

It should be illegal - is it not illegal then?

Also there is the point that if we permit the armed forces to use torture abroad on terrorist subjects, it is an extremely slippery slope. Next it will be people suspected of terrorism within the UK. Then people suspected of other major crimes. Then who knows? Fit every police station with a set of thumb screws? Set up a rack in the magistrate's court?

Is there really a debate outside the Pentagon?

Yes, torture. How can simulated drowning be anything but?

No, never defensible. Even if it did work (and that is highly debatable), trading in all your moral values to save a few hundred people from terrorist attack is a very bad trade indeed.

"We should be bloody grateful that there are people out there that are able to torture someone (I certainly couldn't) to make sure you are safe."

Are you totally insane?

Yes it is. How can there be any debate on that subject?

Well I wouldn't fancy it myself - and do unto others ...........

"Even if it did work (and that is highly debatable), trading in all your moral values to save a few hundred people from terrorist attack is a very bad trade indeed."

Even if it does prevent one attack how many other attacks slip through the net as the security services flounder with a mass of false confessions?

How many other attacks are carried out by terrorists who see affirmation of Al Qaeda's claims that the west is evil?

How many other attacks are carried out by terrorists who see the West's support for a "the ends justify the means" as also justifying their own means?

How many more die as the war drags on due to the impossibility of winning hearts and minds?

Possibly preventing one attack comes at a catastrophic price.

"Next it will be people suspected of terrorism within the UK."

Been there, done that...

We allegedly used to waterboard terrorist suspects in Northern Ireland in the early 1970s.

The American's seem to be making exactly the same mistakes as we made when we were learning how to fight terrorism. Torture is utterly self defeating and only empower the terrorist.

Yes it is, Torture is to make someone do something/do something to them that causes them to break under the pressure eventually.

Thus of course it is, I don't remember anyone ever saying Chinese water torture doesn't count or white noise so why people are quibbling over this I don't know. I expect it's because the west does it, if North Korea where at it we would be screaming about it, we love living in our glass houses.

it doesnt work as thier has been no intelegence used from water boarding.

i think its ignorant to say it doesnt touch your life?

i think bush just likes to inflict pain and suffering.

Video of Christopher Hitchens undergoing waterboarding for a feature in Vanity Fair.

He's very clear, having experienced it - albeit briefly and in complete safety - that it's torture.

I think the most chilling part of it is when he talks about how he'd have given up any secret, such was his terror, and he can't imagine the horror if you're actually innocent and have no secrets to reveal.

He apparently still has nightmares about his experience - and you can see from the video that it was brief. If he was under interrogation it would have gone on for much, much longer.

Bush is a damn fool, nothing more then a puppet to take the blame in place of those pulling the strings, the fall guy if you will.

I couldn't care less what he says, he probably sold his story for a handful of magic beans anyway that turned out to be rabbit droppings.

wow suzi that is shocking so it is not actually simulatinmg drowning it could in actual fact result in drowning.

i have seen footage of it before in a real situation and what christopher hitchens experienced seemed less severe but enen still very distressing.

"so it is not actually simulatinmg drowning it could in actual fact result in drowning."

It is simulated drowning, the torture works by tricking the body's natural reflexes into thinking that it's drowning and reacting accordingly. That can result in terrible injuries including "dry drowning".

A big part of the torture is that the conscious mind knows that the body isn't actually drowning but it can't stop the body reacting as it does. You're out of control and it's all being done completely at the whim of someone who can start or stop it at will.

Nasty stuff.

Am completely in agreement with everything BadgersPaws has said, and Elephants.

And just for the record, I have something like 6 cousins in the army, none of whom would countenance anything like this. The army is not a bunch of torturers and I take great exception to you saying so.

I can just imagine the scene:-

"Hello General got some bad news, half of my regiment just been blown up looking for that darned bomb."

"Eh, what about your informant prisoner?"

"We gave him tea and cupcakes but he has a lactose intolerance and refused to speak until he got apple turnovers but the next Asda plane delivery isn't until Thursday."

Oh well, damn shame old chap. Bad thing war eh. I will start writing to the 200 next of kin. See if you can find out where that other bunch of insurgents are?"

"Sorry Sir, some more bad news, he is now refusing to cooperate until he has had trauma support counselling, so that's no good. All counsellers were blown up in this last one."

"Oh, thats bad, I will see if I can get one flown in by private plane. Make sure he is comfortable please."

"Yes Sir, will do sir."

Can you see where I am coming from now. War is a nasty horrible business, but unfortunately without it, we couldn't have the freedoms we have today. You don't go into the forces and just get told to torture people, that comes after you have done a few years and of course, I doubt we would even be told about it or how & why it's done.

"Can you see where I am coming from now"

Ooh is it planet bullshit?

torcher, tawcher, tautchoor.

Whichever way you put it, tis still torture and not in my name, if you don't mind.

"You don't go into the forces and just get told to torture people, that comes after you have done a few years and of course, I doubt we would even be told about it or how & why it's done."

OK, so you're not slandering all people in the armed forces, just people who have been in a few years.

More realistic examples would be the army fruitlessly searching for dozens of reported bombs from victims of torture and not being in the right place at the right time to deal with the genuine bomb that does go off.

Or the officer having to write letters to the families of soldiers killed by the additional terrorists inspired by the "proof" that the West is evil and the obvious support for a "the ends justify the means" type of argument.

Torture does not produce reliable intelligence.

Torture produces a flood of unreliable intelligence.

Torture causes further terrorist attacks.

Torture will prolong any war against insurgents.

"we should be bloody grateful that there are people out there that are able to torture someone to make sure you are safe"

Thud.

MrsCrafty you profess to being "uneducated as far as war is concerned". Kindly do not assume that everyone else is as ignorant as you. What makes me laugh is that you keep hammering on about how you know nothing and don't want to know anything and then say it's all good. If you don't know anything how can you make any sort of intelligent assessment or judgment?

Agree with Badger, from both a practical and moral standpoint. I have no problem with Americans. I lived for a short while in America and, like most places, its full of interesting and welcoming people. Part of George Bush's legacy is to hold his people up of bigoted, ass kicking folk - which they are not. He is out of power now, and still wont shut up. If I were American, I would be furious with him.