Voluntary work or lose benefits

[Marjoriew]

Government intend to cut benefits of claimants on JSA who refuse to do voluntary work of 30 hours a week over a 4-week period.
Benefits could be stopped for up to 3 months if claimants refuse to comply.

It's the 21st century workhouse!

Exactly, Pocket. It's the same type of work as community service for the crime of being unemployed and poor.

wubbly 'Of course people on minimum wage get benefits, CTC, WTC, housing benefit, CTB etc'

Do they? I have no idea how much they get but I presume if you are unemployed on JSA you get more?

For example at what point of earnings does it become beneficial to work? If a family is on 20k do they have more or less money than a family with two unemployed parents?

Yes, to make the wealthy work harder, pay them more...to make the poor work harder, pay them even less!

Sorted. People who do really, really demeaning jobs should be paid absolutely nothing, because it's important to realise they only have those jobs because they deserve them.

Didn't you all realise this? It is after all at the heart of tory policy.

just another point on people refusing certain jobs because they're "not good enough"

often it's true - in simple maths terms.

You can't take work under 16hrs a week, - you'll get no WTC

Soon it'll be changing to a minimum of 24hrs a week if you're in a couple.

No point telling someone on benefits to go and take the 10hr a week cleaning job. As they won't be able to live on it.

peppa - no you won't get more working minimum wage than on benefits. Once the childcare element on the Working Tax is added on it's almost always more.

I think I'm going to copyright the term "Jobs for votes scandal"

in preparation for when the media join the dots, public sector cuts = job losers = pen pushers and tiers of middle managers more likely to be Tory voters. Street cleaners and other low level Council workers more likely to be agency staff who vote Labour or members of a labour union. Cut the likely labour voters jobs, give the jobs to JSA slaves, no union membership, no noticeable drop in services to the Tory voting public, been seen by idiots to be giving work experience to the "long term unemployed scroungers".

Tory Win, Society Lose.

What utter crap Constance39. Sorry but I have tried to enter into this debate in a open and genuine manner but that is just paranoid nonsense, and the sort of lies which have just cost Phil Woolas his seat.

It is, Constance. It's the idea that if you are poor, it is because you deserve it.

It's your place in the world, we can't all be high-fliers, so those who are not should accept their lot, however bad, cap in hand, and be grateful.

It's about rich, white, male entitlement.

i imagine the details are hazy precisely because no one who counts will be adversely affected

it's not as if people on jsa will be volunteering as accounts managers or executive assistants ffs

v cynical policy

times are tough - let's stick it to those bastards living the life of reilly on benefits

big society my arse

Agree with PlentyofPockets - if we were in a situation with a full labour market and plenty of jobs, then something like this, well funded and well organised (which would cost money) would make sense - it could genuinely help some people out of a rut, and potentially back into work.

But done on the cheap, in a time of high unemployment with cuts everywhere - headline grabbing at its worst.

Even ignoring the direct bad effects on individuals it will take money away from better schemes that might actually help people.

The only thing I think it probably won't be is cheap labour for companies - like BeenBeta said above, managing unskilled volunteers is hard work, even if they're keen, and it takes much more than a month to get people into the swing of a job.

Mind you, there always were and probably still are an awful lot of people on benefits that keep essential services ticking over, particularly in poorer areas of the country - loads of playgroups/old people's centres etc always used to rely on getting willing workers there for their year on some govt. 'training' scheme which gives them benefits plus a tenner.

(Assume it is still the case, I gave up labour market economics in disgust 15 years ago on the basis that whatever the research said, govts. just did whatever was politically fashionable and played well to the Daily Mail so I'm out of date on the schemes in place now.)

Who's Phil Woolas?

Of course it's crap, Georgi. I'm exaggerating to make a point.

Yes friend was put on a web design course which promised the world but gave him a 'skills' certificate which meant fuck all.

Those 'training courses' are a nice little earner for the 'providers' but sadly not for their students.

I think this is a fantastic idea and should be started as soon as possible.

Of course there are people on benefits who dont want to be and who are legit claimants who are actively looking for work.....I was on Job seekers for a while and found it absolutely demeaning going to the job centre to sign on every 2 weeks, I was pouring out hundreds and yes I mean hundreds of applications and letters each week but it took my almost a year to get a job it wasn't one that I wanted but I just wanted to get back into work so took what was offered.....it didn't help that when I was made redundant I was pregnant(who wants to employ a pregnant woman?)I worked in that job for a year and then finally got back into my chosen occupation......it is true its much easier to find work when you are in work.

There are just some plain lazy people who believe it to be their god given right to hold their hand out and recieve benefits just because they actually got themselves to the job centre to sign on and therefore deserve the handout! I dont care if it equates to £2 per hour they are working to prove that they are actively looking for work and are not afraid to get their hands dirty, they are working to pay back some of the money they have already recieved.

Why should tax payers pay these people to stay at home doing nothing constructive towards society, bringing children up is no excuse there are plenty of women/men who can bring their children up and work, once a child is at school age there is just no excuse for not working in some capacity.

Kaloki, I don't see that 30 hours of work once in a blue moon after a long period out of work is that much 'suffering' to be honest.

What should be done ? What is the answer to the thousands of people who are on JSA long term ? What is the solution to those who play the system ?

Yes, there should be 'more jobs' created, Harriet Harman was quoted as saying that there are on average 5 people chasing every role. However, there will still be people who don't want to work, what do we do about them ?

Do we let them get on with it because 'they'll always find a way around the system ?' and there's no point ? They may be a minority but they are still a significant number that need to be tackled, imo. Not least because we are now into the second generation of benefit reliance in many of those families. Do we want to create or indeed, perpetuate, the culture of benefit reliance through the generations ? (yes you can tick that off your 'benefit bingo card' card now)

Also plenty of skilled people have been out of work for some time. My A level educated sis was made redundant about 2 years ago and has been ubable to find a job. Prior to this period she worked in fairly highly paid office jobs. The person at the outside agency helping her with her CV completely changed her attitude when she realised that sis was better qualified than her to produve a CV. And Taxpayers are paying for these agencies.

OK, wobblebobble, so you took almost a year to get a job despite the fact that you sent off hundreds of applications.

But other people who can't get a job after a year are 'just plain lazy'

They said on the Politics Show that Dianne Abbott had come out in favour of this scheme. Is this right? Has anyone heard/seen a statement from her this morning (or find a link)? I'd be interested in her arguements.

Kaloki - I'm well aware what a CRB check looks for, thanks (I have to have them for my job), I was being facetious.

there are jobs available - im being made redundant, and if it comes to it - i'll go from a management position to cleaning bogs - whatever need to be done KWIM?

i really believe in the concept of workfare. i really do. - if you claim jsa, thats cool, but whilst you do it do voluntary work and get support filling in applications and enhancing your cv

now the thing that gets on my tits is this

IF you wanted to go for a temporary xmas job - you risk all inds of holy administration shit dropping on you from a great height, housing benefit takes to long to register a change and pay accordingly that your landlord could be taking you to court

its admin fuck ups like this that hinder the process and the delivery of the ideal that money = work. which isn't unfair in itself.

another thing that gets on my tits is this

the job centre are about as useful as fucking syphillis in a convent

they are not intrested in helping - they aren't - wherther this is becuase they have too many clients and not enough resources i dont know

they print out a peice of paper and tell you to go away and ring the number

then you phone up and half the time

half the fucking time

the job is 3 weeks old and was filled 2 weeks ago

this is a govt department that is CLEARLY NOT WORKING and needs an overhaul.

Nomdeplume - 'What should be done'

a) macro stuff - if there's no jobs, then there will be unemployed people

b) serious, heavy duty training and education. Things like paying for people to get their driving license (the one thing that you can statistically prove really genuinely ups ltu peoples chances of getting a job in nearly all circs), paying for chainsaw certificates, fork lift certs, things like that.

Best to do (b) in a rising market, so you get people quickly from these courses into work, and they don't lose the skills.

So (a) first.

can't we just turn the feckless bastards into some sort of high-energy snack?

Oh yes, and 'easy out, easy in' system for benefits - if you take a job, and it falls apart in the first few months, then you can go straight back to where you were in the benefits system, rather than having to apply again from scratch.

And good reliable cheap childcare - expensive, but keeps people off benefits so that they stay in work when their kids are bigger.

Takver for part of that time I wasn't claiming any benefits as if you read my post "I was pregnant", as for saying there are lazy people there bloody are......I know of people who have never worksed and claim every benefit going.....yes they are lazy extremely because they are not actively looking for work.

There is no doubt that it can take time to get back into work but what is the problem with being put to work whilst your looking??

Phil Woolas is a Labour MP who has just lost his seat after the first electoral court in 100 years found him guilty of lying about his opponents in his election campaign.