Belfast riots

[TwoIfBySea]

Anyone else think that these marches should be banned outright until the bigots learn to behave themselves?

I have very strong feelings on this as I grew up with family members on my mother's side in the Orange Lodge and the bile they spouted made me sick. Now I live in a town where there are Orange order bands, including children, keeping the hatred alive!

This isn't Ireland but Scotland and I'm sick and tired of it. It just shows how pathetic some people can be with priorities so skewed it is a wonder they can get out of bed in the morning without wanting to paint the grass orange so it isn't green anymore!

we were over seeing the IL's at the w/e. FIL and DH's uncle managed to drive right into it, despite knowing where all the trouble was. We were horrified and all DH's uncle could say was, 'your auntie would kill me if one of those petrol bombs dmagaed the car'

Men..........

Excuse my ignorance, I am foreign, but what is all this 'Orangeman' stuff?

oh gosh expat...basically the English invaded Ireland a fairly long time ago (about 400 years?). Then they moved a lot of Protestant Scottish people there, mainly in the north, in the usual British Establishment tactic of divide and control, ie they would keep the Catholic Irish busy by fighting with them. It worked, and is still working today. Traditionally, I believe it is true to say that the Protestants had the support of the British government, and they got the best of whatever was going in the past.

When the English had to give up the rest of Ireland after WW1, they conceived the bright idea of splitting 6 of the 8 Ulster counties off and keeping it, thus keeping the Protestants in the majority in this small area. Otherwise, of course, they would have been in the minority in the whole of Ireland.

there are a few other details, and someone may come along and tell me that Ive got it all wrong, and it is actually quite different.
Why certain people in Northern Ireland want to keep these centuries old fights going is a total mystery to anyone not born in NI, or sadly, in parts of Scotland too. The only logical explanation is that someone, somewhere, is making money out of it.

An Irish girl once told me that she and her hubby met some Northern Irish Protestants on holiday in another country. They got on really well, but at one point, the Northern Irish said "Of course, if we were at home, we wouldn't be able to talk to you, you know..."

expat, they wear orange, carry orange banners etc, its a nickname really.

pathetic carryon - nothing to do and where are their brethern - jeffrey donaldson namely - in columbia chasing up getting the columbia 3 extradited, and his own monkeys causing mayhem.

my dh said the coucil should stay out of the areas and not clean the mess and eventually the normal locals will put manners on them.

Totally agree - they should be banned.
Expat, Orangemen are supporters of William of Orange aka 'King Billy' a 17th Century (I think) Protestant King of GB who beat the Catholics. Very long time ago but, sadly very real to some of these to$$ers.

The Orangemen are a group of Protestants. It's all to do with some frightfully old rituals, that really are of interest to nobody but themselves.

yip hate all the bigotry my dp is so bad hes a rangers fan and its all we hear

He'd be gutted about Saturday's result against Falkirk then, starshaker. My dh is convinced that's what started off these riots

this is the weird bit

It is interesting in this context to look back at the events of just over 300 years ago and to analyse exactly what was involved in the war between William of Orange (King Billy as he is popularly known) and James II of England. This war - popular mythology would have us believe - was a struggle to defend the Protestant religion against the Roman Catholic Church. In reality, however, the Williamite War - in Ireland - was effectively a war between two factions for mastery over the Irish people. And far from being a war to defend Protestantism against the Catholic Church, William of Orange counted among his allies none other than the Pope of Rome - the head of the Roman Catholic Church!! The Pope and King Billy were in fact political buddies engaged in a bitter European power struggle in which Ireland's people - both Catholic and Protestant - were mere sacrificial pawns

nighty night good syopsis, but i think the british governemnt would be quite happy not to have the cost of northern ireland on its balance sheets now.
with the withdrawal of alot of troops and removal of army posts/barracks, it shows they need it elsewhere - iraq unfortunately.

but its a laugh the orangemen went mad (paisley) with the troop withdrawal and its their nutters casuing all this outrageous chaos!

yip tab he wasnt there but he was very peed off and the hibs game 2 lol my stepdad is a hibs fan so wound him up a bit

hermykne,
thank you. Ive often wondered why we are still meddling in NI. The standard reason is "Oh, the Protestants would murder all the Catholics if we pulled out"
That's just b***t to my way of thinking. Its quite simple; set a date, and go! Im sure the transition could be eased by UN troops if necessary.

Of course, it is a way of keeping a larger army than we would perhaps otherwise be able to keep busy. And doesn't it attract subsidies from Europe? And who owns all the land there, anyway?

Message withdrawn

I think it is true to say that neither the British government nor the Irish one really want the six counties, few natural resources, stagnant economy, expensive to run. But currently the majority of citizens are protestants and UK taxpayers who feel a loyalty to the Queen. The problems come to a head when the 'orangemen' insist on yearly marches through Catholic areas. These marches are 'triumphant' marches to demonstrate to the catholics the 'orangemens' superiority over them. Obviously these marches are outdated and inflamitory in the present political climate and the problems arose this year because some of the marches were redirected away from catholic areas. The orangemen are angry as they believe that their right to uphold their traditions (no matter how offensive they may be).
The behaviour of the orangemen this past weekend just plays into the hands of the IRA. Lets hope these are the last pathetic throes of a dying beast

Nightnight, the problem with that is that the majority of people in NI at the moment WANT to belong to the UK. That may change in time as the proportion of Nationalists to Unionists is rising but would it be prudent to pull out when these people would then feel abandoned by the UK.

I dated an Irishman for years and of him and all his friends and family I don't think one of them thought NI was anything but trouble - literally.

Two things I heard plenty of when the issue was brought up was that people from NI would start a fight in an empty house and that they would fight their own shadow!

I guess that is true then.

chipmonkey,
that's the standard line that I was told at school too. But look at the facts:

Our country is occupying part of another country.

Northern Ireland is a completely artificial entity created so that this majority argument could be used. The majority on the island of Ireland certainly don't want to be part of the UK.

We are all subject to EU legislation so the actual difference between living in the UK and living in Ireland is not as great as it was 30 years ago.

If you had a vote in Kilburn, Liverpool or Glasgow, it is likely that some small areas would indicate a preference to join the Republic of Ireland. Logically, on that argument, we should cede sovereignty if a majority of the residents want it. And why stop there? Bradford could be an outlying province of Pakistan! Brixton could be an honorary island in the West Indies. And so on.

There is really no logical reason for the British to be still in Northern Ireland.

agree nighty night - no logical reason at all! the trouble is all of this dates back so many years ( centuries) . I never condoned any of the IRA violence, but the Loyalists are just as bad IMO. They seem to be more resistant to any peaceful solution that the Catholics.

also, their marches should definitely be banned. They just do it to be provocative and it's no coincidence that they always march through very poor Catholic areas.

They say that they are supporting the minority Protestant residents, who get bullied on the other 364 days of the year. Not sure how true this is, but is certainly believable.
But I agree - ALL the agro should stop!

But we in Ireland have now by referendum voted that we no longer lay claim to the 6 counties in NI. This was part of the Good Friday agreement. So even if Britain pulls out tomorrow, I don't know where that leaves NI. I agree that the whole way our current state was created was an absolute scandal at the time but the people of NI have lived with this for the last 84 years. The way it stands now is that a majority of people in the North must vote in favour of re-unification with the South in order for it to take place. And even if you are Nationalist, there is serious doubt about whether you would be better off. Our health education, infrastructure generally are far worse than yours. You can usually tell you've crossed the border by the state of the roads!

chipmonkey thats true, the northern catholics are very happy with the standard of living in ulster and the thoughts of the republics tax system and health alone would make them vote no to a united ireland. plus they get huge value with the sterling shopping south on luxury items or trips!

seriously the marhcing is appalling and should be prevented. nationlists dont march. its a tradition fuelled by the likes of paisley and trimble not so long ago.

it'll be interesting to see where the next elections take the balance of power?

sinn fein have more popularity in the south than the green party and only slightly less than labour.

If you go to Ulster, you'll barely be aware of the troubles except if you stray into the scummy Belfast housing schemes. The people who maintain sectarianism are very much in the minority. Since the Peace Agreement the standard of living has improved dramaticaslly in Ulster, so much so that no-one (except the scummy nutters) wants to return to the bad old days, no matter what their politics may be.

(and I realise I've some generalisations here).

I was brought up until i was 15 in northren ireland and i think a lot of people there are so used to all of this that it is part of their lives now and they are scared to let it go.I think this has infiltrated every day life and people to some extent and agree with twoifbythesea Iknow mant people there who wouldn't 'fight with thier shadow'but a lot more who would Within my family there is always someone not speaking to someone else and they hold grudges forever (literally)It does my head in when i am there as there are also those who just want to get on with life in what is a truly beautiful country