Does coming from a deprived background really seal your fate?

[Pinkjenny]

Just wondering, really, listening to Nick Clegg on R5 live. I come from Anfield in Liverpool, not deprived really, but certainly not affluent. My mum worked in a shop, and my dad was (and still is) an engineer.

I credit all of my success (relatively speaking, of course) to the way in which I was brought up, and the attitude of my parents, who told me I could be whatever I wanted to be, as long as I put my mind to it.

Does giving children money for their first shoes and first suit really help break that poverty cycle?

Or does it depend on the attitude of their parents and their general upbringing?

Ah X posts with Xenia's inspiration LOL: exactly.

And I am incredibly lucky in that DH absolutely beleives in me as well, not many do get that.

You get a career development loan GivesHeadlessHorseman not sure if they are publicised but DH was pointed in the direction of one when he took an MBA

Xenia - I agree about multiple problems, if money was the only problem we would have solved it years ago!

The thing is, some people will always be poor because there lives are always in chaos and to some degree socially dysfunctional.

Yes, extreme poverty will often exacerbate that, or to some extent create it. An inability to stand on your own two feet once and for all, due to things just being a whole lot more complicated when you can't just get your debit card out, seems to be the major issue. As many people have pointed out, you can't take your children to the library if you can't afford the bus fare.

But there will always be people who'd rather spend the bus fare to the library on something less appropriate. It's no good pretending otherwise. They are the the ones who will always be there, because if you always do what you always do, you always get what you always get.

Yes, it is better that fewer children are taken away from their mothers because they had no possible hope of providing for them, and it's undoubtedly good that women (and men) do not feel pressured to enter into doomed or unhappy marriages. That was always tragic.

What is tragic today, however, is that so many (not all - please take note!) disadvantaged young women do not appear to have been empowered by the gifts of free, safe contraception, and free state education that their grandmothers, and great great grandmothers never had.

On the contrary. Far from seeing it as means or escape, or self-advancement or opportunity to change their own destiny, they see the liberal, tolerant attitudes of the post-war post-pill state as a reason to stay exactly where their great grandmothers were. In poor quality housing they hate, in relative poverty, with few prospects of being otherwise, and struggling to bring up children alone.

It wasn't meant to be like that.

It's not so much about MC people filing u these clubs and activities that would enrich any dc's life, as much as that the poorer you are, the less likely you are to have the funds to cover the costs of them. I can't afford cubs/ scouts/ guides for my dc, the subs each week would be astonomical as a percentage of my income. I try to get my dc to do as many of the (free) after school clubs that are on offer, but most of them are sports based, and my dc aren't that sporty. Nothing sciency until secondary. THe funding for 11+ tutoring at my dc's school is only available for dc on free school meals (i.e. those whose parents are on IS/JSA).

DC like mine from a family where parents work for low wages get no help to cover tutoring costs. Which are £25 for a hour round here. So an MC child whose parents can afford the tutoring has more chance to get out of poverty, as does a dc whose parents don't work at all, than my dc where we are slogging our guts out to get low pay, and lose FSM which seem to be the key to getting access to all these discretionary funds. Fair?

Mama you can yes but IIRC theya re credit checked: given that retraining can save the state a fortune in benefits I think there should be more avenues available.

GHH you're right it wasn't meant to be like that: but when you honestly think your high points in life and your chidlren and only those, well I can understand why deferring it beocmes hard tbh.

I don't think until I was 18 I ever went to a household that wasn't council- oh, one, yes: a friend, I think her Dad had me down as having potential- he is long passed but I hope he 'knew' when I graduated, he'd ahve been chuffed to bits. Once I as at college my friends were the ones where more was expected from life- but those who were worst off in those stakes had already gone.

I do personally belive it is poverty of expectation that drives the choice benefit culture. Money can help with that- school trips, equipment, etc- and it#s good it is an option becuase those children who are helped (and really there are a great many) benefit hugely, and so do the generations of that family that come after. The aanswer though is teaching there is more.

I am lucky enough to have been invovled with mentorings chemes- homestart as an employee, and a school mentoring program as a student- and they work. Kid's (and parent's) confidence levels fly when they think someone thinks theya re worth the time;
someone from outside their situation finds the potential so much quicker I think as well, not clouded by family history or struggles. Yes I had the kids who were always going to get by- but the school based ones I remember are the ones where we found ways to work with talents- a child whose dyslexia precluded A Levels but was an astounding artist, went on to a Btec First / diploma / HND. Real, life changing events in some of the most poverty ridden areas (Welsh valleys for the school mentoring).

And then- the funding ran out so it closed. Same happened to our homestart too, even though we could demonstrate something life a tenfold cash saving over SSD with the level of family we were working with (unusally severe for HS, due to where we were).

i'd love to see more mentoring schemes running. My own dream is to run a mentoring charity working with aprents going through the SN diagnosis system, but it works in so many settings. And done well, it's pretty cheap too. Especially when compared with the alternative outcomes.

That should read that an MC child whose parents can afford tutoring has more chance of getting a decent education and not ending up in poverty.

Laptop is slowly dying, excuse the missing leters/ parts of sentences, we are saving up for a new one as DD needs a working laptop for school.

LL I do agree, we used to waive subs for some famillies but that's not universal (and usually emant me dipping my hand in my pocket at times- we were both earning abck then but still).

As for your second paragraph about FSM and working- that's us too, of course it's not fair. Bow much those tutoring fees etc would be neded if the schools could deliver it would be questionable though; there has to be a better allocation method than FSM though. A SE person losing money through a failing business cannot claim FSM; yet tehy are as poor as anyone. Council tax benefit woudl be better as it is neither restricted to working or non working, nor those who are renting.

(Just ahd to buy ds1 a laptop from his DLA LL, needs one to take into school when he starts comp; it's his Christmas / birthday gift too mind! Ebay, fortunately. Dos show that us poor people don't always drink the money eh? )

www.bbbs.org/site/c.9iILI3NGKhK6F/b.5961005/k.97C6/International/apps/s/link.asp

Maybe something like this, the big brother big sister foundation.

Yep, that's exactly it. Those schemes work.

Not instead of cash: you are always limited if you're in penury. But they can change so much. And i;d rather see extra cash on top of what's there now directed at something like that tbh; certainly for the kids in real areas of deprivation where there just aren;t alternative life patterns they can experience.

I agree entirely with the latest premise of the thread. This is all about attitude.

The way we think about things changes our behaviour.

People say you cannot throw money at this........but yes you need money, but you need it spent in the right way.

Our parents and upbringing teach us how to think and if they teach us to think in certain ways, then outcomes will be much reduced - and this is right across the board - health, success at work, personal life, 'happiness', raising children. They are all connected and all can be reduced in many ways to the way in which problems are dealt with.

I am a Work Psychologist who teaches people, generally in Sales, in private business to deal with adversity, and deal with it well, to maintain productivity, keep absenteeism down, reduce presenteeism, and increase their business goals (i.e. sales). It works. It is a very specific attitude that I develop with people, which literally changes your outcomes and your potential. If you change people's attitudes, you change the way they behave.

It is not innate. It is a way of thinking that is indoctrinated by parents and influential people in childhood - and btw I meet many many teachers and carers at nurseries for example, who do not demonstrate the attitude I teach, hence perpetuating the problem.

While I would not wish my childhood on anyone in some ways it has been the making of me. I was not allowed to attend school every day as from about 13 I was expected to work. I was expected to sell things from my parents' shop in school, so even when I was in school I was there to earn money. I was forbidden from going to sixth form and uni. I went but took the beatings, rejection and financial cost on the chin. There was no encouragement or value placed on education. Despite this I passed all my A Levels with flying colours and went to Oxford. I am on to my second very successful career and I have an inner confidence from knowing that everything I have is because of what I can do. There have been no handouts, no silver spoons, no help or support at home and no real advantage. I do think I can do whatever I want to do. I am driven by not wanting to ever again experience povery, both financial and emotional. I never want my dd to experience my childhood.

I do wonder what will drive my dd when she is older.

'It is not innate. It is a way of thinking that is indoctrinated by parents and influential people in childhood - and btw I meet many many teachers and carers at nurseries for example, who do not demonstrate the attitude I teach, hence perpetuating the problem.'

And most crucially of all it can be unlearned

And that in turn means we should value the kids and not write them off.

Definitely can be unlearned. 100%

Some people are lucky because they have not had to deal with parents who perpetuate the problem and constant adversity to reinforce the problem

Those who already have the attitude find it difficult to empathise with those who don't because they don't recognise it for what it is - a learned attitude

Quite, LadyBB.

And if you don;t have backers in life the negative thoughts and messges are reinforced aren;t they?

So- Dh and I are determined that this time of being on low income won;t alst forever.

Today I got a call offering me a job interview for a Grad position I can fit around being a carer- a researcher role.

Except I can';t go, because it's at half term and I can't find childcare (DH in a crucial exam; we can't jeppardise our guarantted income for a chance). There is a half term club but it's not opening this half term, for specific PITA reasons.

I spent about thirty minutes whinging I may as well give up trying; then started laying down different plans. Becuase I have people who beleilve in me that kick me back up when I try and give in.

I am luckier than many.

One of the parts of the attitude is that it won't last forever - so you obviously do that bit already

Well we try LO; but we know it's in stages for us (I did my degree, DH does his and works, then he works from home and I do my SW conversion).

It helps to have a plan and a firm direction.

There are many strong motivational factors driving people from poor backgrounds, don't you think? The most driven and successful people in my firm have at best lower middle class upbringings. Which i think is interesting

I feel lke vesp and we came from different backgrounds. I wonder if it's random - take 100 women and say 20 may think they can do most things and they are determined enough to do them. May be it's even genetic.

totally echo waht lenin and quattro say

Quattro I think it is sheer fear of poverty. In my case poverty was not a Walton's Mountain escape from the rat race idyll that bought us togther. It was hell and I will never ever go back there. I once relied on a man to provide for me and I ended up back where I started. So not only am I driven I am fiercely independent. Sadly life has taught me that the only person I can rely on is myself.

The greatest gift I have givem my dd is confidence, she is ready at 9 to take on the world.

A lot of people need to be taught to deal with shit that happens to them

Being from an affluent background tends to mean you have to deal with less shit. Where there are generations of people who do not know how to deal with shit and have an entrenched way of thinking about bad things - specifically that they will last a long time, are not limited to this case and instead also they effect other areas of life and not just this, and that it is all your own fault.

So to take an example, someone goes for a job interview and doesn't get the job. One person might think that they will "never get a job because this always happens, and thus I am also a shit parent because I cannot provide for my kids, and it is all my fault because I didn't know the answer to the question in the interview, and I was too nervous and I had sweaty hands and I should have worked harder at school"

Whereas another person who failed to get the job may think "oh well, it is just one job, I have applied for another, maybe I will get lucky with that, and it is only one job, everyone gets knocked back from jobs sometimes, and there were some really good candidates but at least I got an interview and can learn from that and use it when I get my next one. Maybe it just wasn't the job for me"

Person 1 gives up and becomes avoidant of interview situations

Person 2 carries on applying for jobs and persists and is resilient to the adversity

And to take it back to socioeconomic status - people who are constantly dealing with shit tend to be from lower socioeconomic groups where there are more problems with housing, employment, etc. and if they don't think about adversity in a healthy way, will become entrenched in avoidance and low confidence. You can see how it builds up over time, every time there is adversity.

Of course there are natural levels of optimism but using CBT it is easy to get people to challenge the way in which they think, and thus behave differently.