Tuition fees

[stoatsrevenge]

So we are to expect a massive increase in university tuition fees, as well as increasing interest ib student loans...

Here is the 6 year plan from the LibDem manifesto:

1
Scrap fees for final year full-time students

2
Begin regulating part-time fees

3
Part time fees become regulated and fee loans become available to part time students

4
Expand free tuition to all full-time students apart from first year undergraduates

5
Expand free tuition to all part-time students apart from first year undergraduates

6
Scrap tuition fees for all first degree students

How are they going to square this one?

Lilybolero - I don't really see this. Everyone except the rich and the poor will graduate with debts, though have I alone noticed the new living allowance? - but why isn't it better to graduate from Oxbridge with debts than from a 'new' university? You're much more likely to get the kind of job that will let you repay the debts from Oxbridge.

Because the debts will be hugely much higher. If a 'normal' university is charging fees of 6-7k per annum, and Oxbridge is charging fees of 12-17k per annum, you are looking at a debt (for fees alone) of potentially 51k, as opposed to 18-21k. Then you have interest charged on top of that.

I just don't think people from non-rich households will be able to take on that level of debt.

Every student will be liable to repay the tuition fees afaik, 'poor', 'middle' or 'rich'. Just as they do now, there has never been help for the fees. The only difference is that now they are going to double, at least.

Thekidsmom, thanks for putting me right on that. I worked in a training practise and that was the route they all took to ACCA, didn't realise chartered was different.

Yes, Lilybolero, I can see that, but isn't it better to have a higher debt but ALSO a better chance of a job? Surely the real Dredd scenario is that you have 20 k of debt and a none-too-good job?

I would to know what people think 'rich' means. My husband earns £45K because he has worked very hard to get where he is. He pays 40% tax on his earnings as well as: National Insurance, mortgage payments, all utilities, Road Tax and Insurance for our car, fuel, pension, Council tax for me and him as well as food, daughter's bus pass at £40 per month and scarcely has enough for going out with me or his friends.

We have DS1 in 2nd year at Leicester University, DD1 at college doing her A Levels hoping to go to University and DS2 still at primary school. The middle and youngest still get CB but that is going in 2013, (the worst time it could go as youngest starts senior school that year with all the expense that comes from buying uniform etc), we also are having Tax Credits taken away next April. At the moment I pay £20 per week into 17 yr old's a/c. She is trying to find work to fit in with college (who don't advise to get a job while she is working towards A Levels- WTf do these tutors expect her to buy her clothes with as she is not entitled to EMA!!!)but p/t jobs are thin on the ground around here as many Poles and other immigrants take the jobs.

I have had to go back to childminding which I was trying to get out of, I trained as Teaching Assistant earlier this year but was unable to find work due to lack of experience. I really hope I can get some work now or we will be struggling.

Plenty of people work as hard fot less though (not in any way underplaying your dh's achievements)- dh has just started a business, the fact he makes a profit is great of course but including training (most legally rtequired) it's 70+ hours a week to maybe hit the tax threshold this year (obviously presumably short term).

What's rich? When you're poor it's paying the rent; further along it's a car or a house or....

always one step above what you have though.

As it is, having been borassic poor, we feel pretty well off ATM as we can pay for the shopping without crossing our fingers the card will go through; funny how it all works isn't it?

Oh and mum2 sympathies with the job hunt; same issues here (I am a carer atm but don't trust the income so looking; only trouble is big local employers signed up to a plan whcih guarantees an interview to anyone on JSA or at risk of being made redundant but not carers- in our area that's me shafted then)

Yes, but SanctiMoanyArse, what's the point in the guv putting more people into the situation with the credit card failure dread (and I have SOOO been there...)?

Often Cb is all that stands between us and being unable to pay our grocery bills. How we'll fund DS and dd at university is anybody's guess... we're mortgaged to the hilt already so they will have to do what I did - work 25 hours a week in a shop while studying full-time.

The worst scenario in terms of how much you pay back, is getting a job in the 30-50k area, but having a massive 50k debt. This is the salary range that pays the most back in total. Any lower and you either pay nothing back, or pay back a small amount (and probably not have paid back the amount borrowed by the time it is written off). Any more and you can pay it back faster, and therefore accrue less interest. But this mid-range is where you pay most back, as you will tend to pay it off within the 30 years, but only just.

Wetnoodle

I know people who attended (slu)st Louis university and north western (Illinois) where the fees are astronomical (somewhere around 30,000 dollars) but the average award to help with that is around 20,000 dollars.

You can't really directly compare fees alone because there are so many other differences in terms of alumni help, scholarships, work programs.

I wouldn't actually have a problem with following the US model completely but it seems they're hiking the fees without making other changes.

I don;t think there is sense in it; never argued there was.

Some debt IMO is fine- as an investment. I graduated two eyars ago so am of that era anyway, and intend to end up in social work so no large wage on teh horizon, just enough to be paying abck in fact.

But I don't think I would advise my kids to choose a very expensive place: I wouldn;t discourage them either though, at 18 they should have some concept of what matters to them as adults.

DH is working alongside his degree, I can't remember when he last had a day off- certainly if we go away he takes a laptop and kit wiht him so he can keep it up. I am not complaining, but that seems to be a reality. I only worked very part time but during my first two years I was going through autism dx / statements X 2, and in my last I was pregnant and caring for the ASD duo and their sibling. So not much time for work tbh.

I think it's good for students to do soem work to contribute to their upkeep but there is a limit at which the balance tips with any investment, and education is an investment.

I'm sure this has been covered but can't find a post on it: what about mature students? Surely someone of, say, 50 would be highly unlikely to be able to pay back their fees during their working lifetime (hollow laugh emoticon - probably retirement age will be 90 in a few years' time).

I am not bleating, I just don't think that the proposed changes are fair with the CB in 2013.

We have no savings as we had to use them to keep our 12 year old car going so hubby could GET to work in the first place to pay the bills. I just hope and pray it passes the MOT next March cos we haven't the money to replace it (and no I haven't got Mummy and Daddy on hand to help buy another).

I really hope I can get some work, with no relatives near I would have to pay a childminder and it would cost me a fortune so I AM one and have been since 2003. I really wanted a career break to do something else and get my house back as it was a permanent toyshop/creche when I looked after two babies this year until Mum finished work.

M2L have aI said soemthing to make you think I think it's easy or a good system? Just you sound a bit defensive (eg Mum and dad comment, never assumed, mine wouldnt and couldn' so why would I..)?

You sound really stressed. What would you like to be doing as a career change? A good friend is in the same sit as you- she was a CM, hated it, trained as a TA but ended up somewhere really awful and was amde redundant; now heading back to being a CM agin...

Would uni be an option for you ebfore the changes come in? Just thinking that the income might be enough for you and get you on a different track? (pretty much how I played it)- am assuming you don't have ad egree atm as aI was refused TA training on funding as was a graduate.

Whoknew - Maastricht looks interesting for a BA. Leuven do MAs in English and Utrecht BAs also. I'm aware of these because we live in Belgium, and we are looking to see if ds could go to one of these in 4 years time.

English is so widely spoken here that although the culture may be different, the language barrier shouldn't be so bad.

Tyler - you're right, that's one good thing about the US system is that there are lots of awards, scholarships, etc. However, in my experience a lot of these are open to everyone regardless of financial circumstances and are quite often snapped up by wealthier students.

For example, a very good friend of mine got 80% of her tuition at USC (University of Southern California), approx $30K/year covered. Her parents were millionaires, paid the difference and gave her quite a generous monthly allowance.

Another friend went to USC that same year and could only get financial assistance to cover 25% of her fees. Her mom was a single parent, albeit middle class (income approx $60K/year). Because she was too 'rich' for government assistance or scholarships granted purely on financial circumstances she had to take out private loans to fund her education.

They had similar grades and were involved in a lot of the same extra-curricular activities. However, because family income wasn't a factor the school chose the candidate they thought was better suited. You can definitely argue that it's fair enough but I can't help but feel it's wrong for someone who's parents could have easily afforded the tuition to have it subsidized at the expense of someone else who couldn't.

This is all too common for middle class families in the US. Kids come out with $100K+ debt and it has to be repaid as soon as you finish school, regardless of your employment status.

Obviously there are flaws in the UK system and perhaps they should look to incorporate more of the work study, scholarship and financial aid packages available in the US but IMO the UK system seems to be more accessible for poor and middle income families.

English is widely spoken and it may not be necessary for basic survival, but the ability to speak Dutch would help to fit in socially. Delft has a great university for science and engineering.

The important thing about the Browne report (which is only an independent report anyway -- not a policy document) is not just about fees, but what is going to happen to the University sector. Instead of a single sector with some rough comparability, you are going to get a much more extreme, differentiated system with expensive, posh places (the Russell group) with huge fees for international students, kids from public schools and some scholarships for exceptional, ultra-bright kids from state schools. And then you'll get the ex-Polys where you will have large numbers of students, staff-student ratios of about 40-1, and minimal resources. So some will have a real experience of higher education, with proper libraries, and research-active staff who have time to talk to students and read their work, and then there will be the cheap and cheerful degrees, delivered in a couple of years by staff who haven't had time to read a book or article for 10 years, and which won't be worth the paper its written on. :(

Kitsmum, I think your assessment of the teaching delivered at the ex-polys is somewhat skewed. Many ex-polys are populated with staff who are very experienced in their fields and the teaching quality can be excellent. It is completely dependent on the individual academic - I've seen good and bad teaching in both "expensive, posh" places and in post-92 universities.

Having research active staff, does not always correlate with having time to talk to students and read their work, either. Regardless of whether academics work in old or new universities, they are often carrying enormous workloads. It is not an easy job to do and the workload is often met due to the number of hours staff put in (working late into the night is considered a norm at many places).

I started university in 1999, when grants were stopped and fees came in.

I was in care, so got maximum loan and no tuition fees.

I studied MFL, which is a mandatory 4 year course (year abroad).

Graduated and had to take out a bank loan to cover my two overdrafts. Worked to pay this off.

Did PGCE to become a teacher, another student loan.

Start teaching the following year. First year that LAs no longer pay off your student loan.

So, I graduated the first time in 2003, I've worked for six years and studied for one, yet I am still £25k in debt.

I know it isn't like a loan with scary loan sharks and bailiffs threatening you, but it is psychologically a massive barrier to me studying further or taking out a business loan. If I were born a year earlier, or had started teaching a year earlier, it would have been so much easier.

I feel for the youngsters considering uni over the next few years. They have been lied to (Nick Clegg) and used as an easy target. It will stop poorer young people applying, and it will increase the class gap.

Well don ConDems.

I find Unseen that once I've asked for something in Dutch, everyone talks to me in English .....must be my accent!

Looking at Maastricht, it seems quite international, so English will be the lingua franca for the students perhaps. Ds is doing GCSE Dutch, so he will have some.

"research-active staff who have time to talk to students and read their work" [hollow laugh emoticon]

As unseen (love your name) has already said, this just isn't how it works.

I'd hazard a guess that the delivery of teaching, organisation, integration of skills is often better at less research intensive universities though often (and by no means always) the content of courses will be more innovative and complex at research intensive unis. I'm happy to be corrected and of course my courses are well delivered, organised and innovative ... (the gender differences in teaching delivery can be extraordinary).

Scaryteacher v. interesting. I was just in Bruges for a conference, it was embarassing that I didn't even have to try. Every session was in English (obviously). Academics from around Europe are already writing and communicating in English, they can teach in this as well.

It may be a niche - teachers & academics who know the ins and outs of other Unis but I would certainly be happy with my children doing a degree on the continent for less and gaining wonderful experiences for life and future professional work. I think there are problems with Dutch student housing though? Anyway, I would see this as an expanding sector ...

Loopy you would have needed to be 2 years older, fees started in 1998.

I got to study alongside people who were still getting grants and no fees just because they'd applied a year earlier and deferred entry.

It is annoying when a year or two makes a big difference and it looks like it's going to happen again.

DH has just ahd the mandatory email to members of the LD party (there is no mechnism to withdraw mid year) 'Sorry but it wasn't our fault we had no choice'

He'se;arning from his Totry coplleagues fast isn;t he?

Seems to us, we don;t have anything like enough time to save for ds1 should he decide to go (would be fashion I would guess). We're very low income right now but if we follow our plans we will be on a middle income by about 4 years from now but without the house, savings etc.

Worst aplce possible perhaps?

He may choose to acquire the debt but we really would have liked to help, he has ASD, it's an achievement on his part that he found a flair (luckily one taught close to home as he would have no chance of independence at 18)

Under the last Government, people kept telling me ambition was taxed; surely that is exactly what this is for us?