Tuition fees

[stoatsrevenge]

So we are to expect a massive increase in university tuition fees, as well as increasing interest ib student loans...

Here is the 6 year plan from the LibDem manifesto:

1
Scrap fees for final year full-time students

2
Begin regulating part-time fees

3
Part time fees become regulated and fee loans become available to part time students

4
Expand free tuition to all full-time students apart from first year undergraduates

5
Expand free tuition to all part-time students apart from first year undergraduates

6
Scrap tuition fees for all first degree students

How are they going to square this one?

Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear!!! Another day, another dose of Tory misery spooned out to the good people of Britain! So in the last week or so DC has managed to annoy and alienate... stay at home mums, non-married couples, those on incapacity benefit and now its the students turn! Did I miss anyone?

Shame on Nick Clegg and any Lib Dems that vote to raise tuition fees - what kind of future will our children have at this rate?

"I think a lot of future nurses are thinking this way atm."

How many applicants to nursing have the A Levels that would be required for medicine? That's not a rhetorical question: I don't know what the achieved A levels are. Google says you can go into nursing at the University of Lincoln with 240 UCAS points or 200 UCAS points at Bangor, which is somewhere around 3Cs. Are there really people applying to do three year nursing courses who have the 360 UCAS points required for medicine?

I know someone who already has a BA (Hons) and is now doing the three year nursing degree, and then proposes to go abroad to work as she doesn't owe the UK anything and will renege on all her loans.

I just wonder the effect that this will have long term on our economy. Many US pharmaceutical companies have their European bases in the UK atm partly due to the language, but also due to the quality of available employees (graduates, PhDs etc). If the available workforce becomes less well educated, many of these companies may move to other European countries where they are investing in education (Germany, France, maybe Switzerland if there are tax benefits there).

This could mean significant money leaving the UK.

"How many applicants to nursing have the A Levels that would be required for medicine?"

A good friend of mine did occupational therapy (similar pay to nurses). The A'level requirement were broadly similar to those for medicine. To the point where (in those days both UCCA and PCAS forms were used) they were advised not to apply to medicine and OT on the same forms. A different type of person applies for nursing (and OT and physio) as applies for medicine.

I was thinking of mature students, sorry.

Simon Hughes - I hope you mean what you say, that there are still weeks of discussion. I hope you are listening to other's views and principles. I hope Vince Cable is too.

Is George Osborne too much to hope for? Perhaps.

I have found myself just not believing politicians recently. Yes yes I know I should not have ever been so gullible as to believe them, but you know - I did.

What was it that Nick Clegg said about trust and Tories? It seems rather ironic now.

" If the available workforce becomes less well educated"

The same spectre was raised when first tuition fees and later top-up fees were introduced.

And the government has said that HEFCE (or its successor body) will continue to subsidise laboratory subjects. The closure of chemistry departments had started some time ago, with collapsing student numbers. Biology has the problem that it was funded by universities in advance of a projected rise in student numbers which (I believe) hasn't actually happened.

At my daughters' school, a selective school, the problem is that every young lady with an interest in science believes the only possible pathway is medicine, and the number of people going into pure science courses is vanishingly small. That's not about funding, because it's been true for many years.

"I wonder about nursing requiring a degree. If one is capable and required to study for 3 yrs for a degree then why not do a further 2 years and go into doctor training? I think a lot of future nurses are thinking this way atm.'

My experience is that they do not want mature students in medicine, the bar is set so high and they are ageist when going through the admission process because they will not see a decent return on their investment, ie 40 years.

The closure of chemistry departments in most places was political. These departments were more or less forced into the ground.

However, look to Germany for research investment in basic sciences. They are expanding in this area where we are contracting.

The days of Britain as a force to be reckoned with in engineering terms is gone. Soon science will go the same way.

"The closure of chemistry departments in most places was political. These departments were more or less forced into the ground."

Why?

Just a small aside, My DH's cousin went into OT and then switched to medicine - it seemed to be seamless. Her A's were OK - not great.

www.rsc.org/ScienceAndTechnology/Policy/Bulletins/Issue1/FutureUKChemDep.asp this is the RSC's (rather brief/simplified) take on it.

In which case, that has HEFCE as the villain. Had universities been able to charge economic fees, perhaps those departments would have been saved.

jeezus christ Tokyo - the market is not the salvation - it is the problem. HEFCE articulates government priorities - chemistry is not a priority in service-industry Britian. German capitalism and the state came to other conclusions. British capitalism is so highly globalised, it can buy in skills from elsewhere.

"HEFCE articulates government priorities"

And government's track record of "picking winners" is dreadful. Do you really believe that if higher education were a planned economy, in which enlightened technocrats directed people to well-financed departments selected on the basis of national need that the fit to real requirements would be any better? Remind me, how did MiniTech do in the 1970s?

"British capitalism is so highly globalised, it can buy in skills from elsewhere."

Do you think that's a good thing or a bad thing?

Haven't read the whole thread, but one thing this policy really would do is to make it pretty well impossible for the midde income/poorer families to send their children to the top universities. Oxford, Cambridge, Bristol, Durham, Warwick etc will charge what they like, and I have seen estimates of 12-17k per annum. So to go to Oxbridge (and give yourself the best chance of a highly paid job afterwards), you would have potential fees of 51k.

The wealthy Cameron and Osborne, along with wealthy Clegg would have achieved getting 'the plebs' out of Oxbridge, therefore making it easier for their own kids to get in, because only wealthy kids will be able to contemplate it.

Xenia - on what legal basis would you challenge the right to pre-pay? I'm intrigued. Couldn't be judicial review, Human Rights Act? I can think of one very tenuous argument (under Art. 1, Protocol 1) but I'd be doubtful.

Your arguments are cohesive and you clearly speak from a position of wealth. You would, as I see it, happily pay for your younger children up front to remove the debt (+ ruinous interest) for them later on. I applaud you for it and am sure many would like to do the same. But this is a political choice not a legal matter. From what I can see if you remove the pre-pay option you are effectively imposing a tax for the fee element at least.

John Hemming - what's wrong with your proposal? Quite simply that not all classes of people approach debt equally and the more expensive courses at the more expensive universities will become an even greater preserve of the elite. I am beyond words at my disbelief that a Lib Dem could vote for this. I canvassed etc Lib Dem this election, never, ever again. This is a red line for so many of us.

As another RG academic, I increasingly fear for the excellence of the University sector. There are concerns about Uni of X and degree in Y but this is much more fundamental as some of the academic mums are explaining re chemistry and paleology. Many good middle class students will vote with their feet to Holland or North America, departments will collapse and the highly ranked ones will become ever more the province of the rich.

Equality in education matters. There has to be equality of opportunity. This rigged market is taking it away. I am distraught.

I went out last evening and missed most of what seemed to be a lively debate last night here! So am just catching up on the topics you discussed last night.

Can I just correct one thing that Tokyo said last night?

Alot of FE colleges did not become universities in the 1990s. And the FE sector is not all but merged with HE. There is a very clear distinction between FE and HE.

Pre 1992, HE was funded by two funding councils - the Universities FC and the Polytechinics and colleges FC. They merged to become HEFCE in 1992 at the same time as SOME of those institutions funded by the PCFC achieved universtiy status - so the polytechnics became universities. Not all institutions became universities - some stayed as Colleges of Higher Education - criteria needed to be met and not all did. One criteria is size of the student body - there is a minimum number required before degree awarding powers are granted, for example.

Some insititutions remain as Colleges of Higher education today - and are still funded by HEFCE and are still part of the HE sector offering degrees to students via UCAS. And offer good degrees of great value for their students - there is no direct correlation between the quality of the degree (measured by student satisfaction or graduate destinations or other measures) and whether the institution has university title.

FE colleges, on the other hand, have never been funded by HEFCE or its predecessors and ccontinue to be funded in a different way- it was LEAs, then it was LSCs and now its back to county councils.

The confusion, perhaps, comes from the fact that many colleges of higher education (and those that have subsequently achieved university status) do offer FE courses as well as HE courses - funded on a different contract from their HE courses (a contract from the county council in addition to their HEFCE contract). And FE colleges are increasingly being encouraged to provide HE courses as well as their FE offerings - on specific contracts with HEFCE (some foundation degrees are good examples of this)

So although there is a blurring to the naked eye of who is providing what in a small proportions (and it is small across the whole sector) it is quite clear from the funding what the contractual relationships are.

And academcially the 'level' of the course is also very clear - whether its FE or HE. (But you'd need an academic to describe them - I'm just prepared to accept that this is true without being able to describe them).

So, there remains a clear distinction between FE and HE - the two are not merged or close to merged. HE has not been dumbed down over the years with degrees in plumbing....

re a comment from abouteve:

about ACCA status -thats me, btw - its not what is generally called a 'Chartered Accountant.' I know we have chartered in the title and we have the same status for audting and company law and all that, but to really be called a chartered acocuntant you have to be ICAEW. And almost without exception, the route to that is a degree and articles with a practice....

whoknew - you sound like you understand law. Is it not against the free movement of people within the EU for scotland to charge the english students fees?

The tution fees will increase & it will be mainly the rich who will be going to university. Just like it used to be.

It used to be selection on grades & richer pupils at public schools had more chance of a place. Now, as most A levels are top grades, the selection factor will be cash.

Whoknew I'm from the US and let me tell you I seriously doubt anyone from the UK who's afraid of debt would see Uni in America as a solution.

A foreign student at a US state university (e.g. UC Berkley) will be paying at least £11,000 ($17,000) per year not including housing. Somewhere like Harvard, Yale or Stanford and you're talking £25,000 per year. Again, you haven't paid for a roof over your head or any food to eat.

A BA in humanities or sciences takes 4 years to complete. However most schools are so so oversubscribed (private and state) that most students take 4.5-5 years to accrue enough credits to finish.

Now that's a pretty hefty debt to start your adult life with.

dreamingofsun yes I've wondered this too. it must be set out in the devolution agreement, certainly the Welsh Assembly are saying that Welsh Unis will have to increase in line with English Unis because Welsh students will be acquiring the debt in England which will often have to be recovered in Wales. The language and sentiment is odd but I think devolution is this pandora's box that is still unravelling. Certainly EU students come to the UK and will be chargeable for fees but no one seriously expects many will ever pay it back through tax/loan. It's one of the issues that really concerns people.

wetnoodle - I take your point but I studied in the US as a UK student albeit at pg grad level and got massive tuition rebates for being a teaching and/or research assistant. Huge waivers for almost no work. There's a v. interesting thread at the moment on the education board about UK students going to the US. Again tuition waivers etc. are available esp for well qualified middle class kids who excel at something (not necessarily academic). It may be a small market, but as an academic parent with bright kids this would be something I would investigate closely. There's also been quite a lot in the guardian lately about people studying in Holland (in English) or even a guy who's sun went to the Nottingham campus in China. Same money in the end but an incredible experience and ending up with the last two years in Nottingham. The kids who have this kind of nouse (as long as their parents aren't handing it all to them on a plate) are exactly the kind of kids we are desperate to have in UK universities ...