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When I heard that the City bonuses are going to amount to £7 billion this morning, I sincerely wished that someone somewhere would start a revolution

237 replies

nameymcnamechange · 05/10/2010 10:25

Coming as it does after yesterday's Child Benefit announcement, I am beginning to feel positively anarchic.

I think there should be a General Strike over this, or at least a protest march in London.

OP posts:
claig · 05/10/2010 14:10

But Switzerland is not in the EU. EU governments could easily create laws that would make it less profitable to operate out of Geneva. The French would be up for it.

I don't want the government to intervene in businesses like football. Who cares if footballers are earning millions? they can't cause a collapse of teh entire economy and affect all our livelihoods. Banks are a different kettle of fish. They need tighter regulation. Osborne and Cable say that they will provide that. We will have to wait and see.

claig · 05/10/2010 14:14

Don't forget that De Gaulle nationalised all of the French banks, and the French government still holds stakes in them. We now also hold large stakes in our banks. If they threaten to leave, then we could always set up nationalised banks, like De Gaulle did. Let's see how the banks in Geneva liked that. A nationalised bank would employ our top brains and would probably perform better than the casino operators in some of teh private banks.

hoarsewhisperer · 05/10/2010 14:14

its not about an individual leaving - its about companies leaving! They leave london, become registered in Geneva for tax purposes and the Uk goivernment not only loses the income tax recpeits of their employees but also the corporate taxes the company would have paid.

Gon on and have your revolution - the uk will end up a poorer place for it but then again you have already for having had alabout givernemtn for the last 10 years....they have bankrupted you by spending and pushing the psbr (public sector borrowing requirement) to stupid levels at the height of one of the biggest economic booms. It is generally recognised as a sensible thing to do to save when times are good for the hard times that will come - thats why the Germans have the money now and the UK is bust.

hoarsewhisperer · 05/10/2010 14:16

guys - its NOT your high street banks that are paying these bonuses,,,,,,its the fund managers, International investment banks (anyoneheard of Goldmans, Bank of America, Morgan Stanley), hedge funds, M&A Boutiques et al.....

claig · 05/10/2010 14:19

do we know the names of the banks that have relocated to Geneva? All these trading floors in Canary Wharf and the City still seem to be there. I think they are telling porkies. Maybe some small trading boutiques and hedge funds are moving there, but I don't see a stampede by the big banks.

Ripeberry · 05/10/2010 14:21

We have a large financial section in this country as if they tried it anywhere else where people were poor and told they would get poorer there would be riots!

We british are just too nice to do that Hmm

nameymcnamechange · 05/10/2010 14:24

Hoarsewhisperer
You seem to have a problem with your punctuation keys. You don't make your comments any more persuasive by doing !!!???,,,,, this to them y'know.

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MarshaBrady · 05/10/2010 14:27

What would you do Namey? If the profit is there it will find it's way into the employees hands. How would you do it, higher taxes? Etc

AbsofCroissant · 05/10/2010 14:32

I've just finished reading a book called "this time is different", written by two economists (academics). They studied 8 centuries of financial crises, and also examined the most recent crisis (mostly from the US perspective as they're both professors at US universities). FWIW, I have read from the economist, this book, the FT and numerous other sources that the main cause of the global financial crisis were asset price bubbles (in real estate, largely in the US and the UK - UK house prices are still about 30% higher than they should be). There's also the fact of natural business cycles - what comes up must come down (despite governments thinking that they've somehow created a miracle of eternal economic growth)

Regarding banking and sovereign and domestic debt crises, they came up with the following conclusions:

  • bank bailouts, in the long term, are a minimal cost to governments
  • the real long term cost, and one which damages recovery, is a loss in tax revenue

If the UK government runs out its biggest industry at a time when the country is only just starting to recover, the dent in tax revenues would be huge. Financial services contribute approximately 25% of all tax revenues in the UK, in corporation tax. Add on things like income tax, NI contributions etc., corporate sponsorship of art galleries, community projects, museums, theatres etc. etc. and the loss to the UK will be unbelievable. Actually, paying out profits as bonuses or salaries is the best way to make sure that the largest proportion goes to tax (as stated on the first page of the thread).

hoarsewhisperer · 05/10/2010 14:34

sorry if my punctuation offends you. i perhaps dont make my argument more persuasive, but as i work in the industry to which you are referring, i do actually know a bit about what im talking about.

if you want confirmation of firms leaving london, have a look at last weekends financial times, because there was an article quoting the 250m lost government tax revenue so far figure in there. Of course it hasn't been large firms yet, only small boutiques, but i do know of firms that have left. And no, I'm not prepared to name names as it serves no purpose in a forum like this.

anyway, i can tell that i am fighting a losing battle here given the grade a brainwashing that the UK press has performed on the general population that all bankers are bad and that all other industries where people get paid alot are absolutely ok and fine and ticketyboo, so i give up.

FakePlasticTrees · 05/10/2010 14:35

I actually think it's fairer that the profits are shared amongst the workers who's hard work earned the company the money, than given to the shareholders.

MarshaBrady · 05/10/2010 14:37

whoops its

If there is a lot of money being made. Who should get it?

The government? Employees?

claig · 05/10/2010 14:40

every cloud has a silver lining. The banks going to Geneva will have to be bailed out by the Swiss, that will be one less cost to the British taxpayer. Maybe we should pay for their tickets?

claig · 05/10/2010 14:45

"but as i work in the industry to which you are referring, i do actually know a bit about what im talking about."

wasn't that 'Fred the Shred's' argument? he of the largest loss in UK corporate history.
Freddy Krueger would have probably done less damage than 'Fred the Shred'.

Nobody seems to talk about nationalising teh banks and running them in the interests of the nation. Do we really think that people like 'Fred the Shred', with their enormous bonuses, are the best that this country has?

nameymcnamechange · 05/10/2010 14:46

If they could be seen to be repaying the bailout money then that might do something for their PR, I guess.

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StillSquiffy · 05/10/2010 14:47

The Bad News: Much of the world would give their right arm to have the FS industry centralise in their own countries, because of the effect it would have, long-term, on their GDP. Many countries offer huge incentives to try to attract the industry. what this means is that acting on a national level (let alone an industry level) would only result in our cutting our noses off, because the damage of losing this industry would be much more dramatic than the damage caused by holding it up. The ripple effect of the jobs lost, the tax revenue lost and the potential effect on UK house prices would be huge. Be careful what you wish for.

Claig - you wanted names. Well how about HSBC? Largest bank in the world and many of the key decision-makers in the bank(including Board memeners) are in the process of relocating from London to Asia. The top tier of high earners will go with it to Asia and then, slowly, the rank and file of staff will start to become at risk of redundancy when the key management work out that local staff are cheaper than UK staff. and it is estimated that almost one third of Hedge fund owners have relocated form the UK as well (I'm not convinced personally that they would have been paying a fair whack of their money into the tax system but that still means that a lot of business is being lost)

The Good News: The last time a financial crash happened, in the 30's, the average salaries in the industry declined by around 50% (IIRC) over the following 10 years (and just like the recent crash, it had spiralled hugely before the crash), it took a while to happen because it took a while for the industry to restructure. It may happen again (but it depends really on the global economy as well). For the last year and a half bankers have been switching their pay structure so that they lock in 'fixed' salaries and are less affected by 'bonuses'. Which has protected them to a point but I think they are running out of room in terms of avoiding an eventually shift downwards in overal salary levels. They can only shuffle the deckchairs for so long and I think there has to come a point in time when the superflous elements (in both salary terms and job terms) get cleaned up.

FWIW I spent 20 years in an investmant bank (I'm not there any more), so I know the way they operate well. The headlines always attack the big earners and I think people assume everyone in the industry is paid hugely. But it isn't the case. for example Commerzbank are in the press today (google it and you will see) because the German govt is questioning their salary levels. It turns out that in an organisation that employs 33,000 staff, there are 35 traders earning above ?500k. which is great if you are one of them but puts the scale of the issue into perspective - for every 1,000 staff in that bank there is one person earning a really great salary.

The telephone number salaries of some at the very top are astonishing and unjustified in my opinion (no matter how much money you make for the bank), but if you take those chosen few out of the equation it is simply another industry with lots of people working hard. and outside of the veyr few high earners are a group of people who are undeniably well paid, but no better paid than good lawyers, or good accountants, or good doctors (ie the same wages as other professionals in their peer group at uni and the like). If we want to argue the semantics of whether they are of as much value to society as the other professions then so be it, but that's a capitalist vs socialist argument, and when I last checked the general election results no-one seemed to have the appetite then.

nameymcnamechange · 05/10/2010 14:48

"but as i work in the industry to which you are referring, i do actually know a bit about what im talking about".

Thats rather disrespectful to many other people on this thread who also patently know exactly what they are talking about.

OP posts:
AbsofCroissant · 05/10/2010 14:50

Which banks are needed to be bailed out at the moment? Haven't seen anything in the press (might be looking at the wrong ones) in a while TBH

claig · 05/10/2010 15:02

StillSquiffy, thanks for the info about HSBC.
But their roots were in Asia, and I think it makes sense for their top people to operate out of Asia, since they have the expertise, knowledge and history to benefit from the huge rewards which can be gained from the world's future powerhouse of China. Their decision probably has more to do with concentrating on the lucrative Asian market, a market in which they have a competitive advantage to many other banks, as opposed to a tightening tax regime for their high earners.

AbsofCroissant · 05/10/2010 15:06

So claig - who's being bailed out? I'm really interested to know

StillSquiffy · 05/10/2010 15:09

Yes, their roots were in Asia, which explains I think the transient nature of global organisations today - even though they were originally in Asia, they 'headquartered' here in the UK for many years, estalishing many many jobs here. And that decision would have been based on tax, regulatory and resourcing reasons (when an industry concentrates in one location that's where the skillsets gravitate to). Relocating to other areas doesn't require familiarity - look at the offshoring industry which is concentrated in India (with Estonia and Poland catching up fast) - jobs can be moved around very easily. In fact the UK has to an extent shot itself in the foot because employees in this country are very very easy to dump when it suits global organisations, thanks to very low employment rights.

larrygrylls · 05/10/2010 15:12

Abso,

As someone who worked in the industry for 20 years, it is not as simple as you are making out.

As far as I am concerned, up until the bailout, banks were private companies who could pay their employees what they liked.
Why private shareholders accepted so little return for so much risk and such high remuneration is another matter. I think it was pretty stupid, personally.

Post the bailout, everything changed. Several banks were directly bailed out and those who were not could (probably) not have survived the demise of RBS, AIG etc. So, the bonuses post that time would not have been possible without the bailout.

In addition the new "repo" facilities made available by many central banks, including the BOE, and which are still being used to this day were effectively a second strand to the bailout. I believe all the large banks are using them. It effectively allowed them to pledge all their toxic assets in return for shiny new money, which they could invest elsewhere, with huge pickups due to the zero interest rate regime (a third strand to the bailout).

I don't think there is much to be done about it now but, as a capitalist, I can clearly see that you either have capitalism or state support, not the best of bost worlds for the top 0.1% of earners.

smallwhitecat · 05/10/2010 15:15

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AbsofCroissant · 05/10/2010 15:18

Could you explain what you think I said, as I don't get what you mean. (May be having a dim day).

claig · 05/10/2010 15:19

Yes we've always had the laxest employment laws and also the laxest financial regulation amongst the major European industrial countries. Thatcher wanted us to be the Hong Kong of Europe.

But we know that this doesn't really work. An economy like Germany's with good union protection and a smaller, more regulated finance industry, has long outperformed the British economy, and it is Germany that is the powerhouse of Europe and is always called upon to bail other European countries out.

Banks are already offshoring many of their call-centre operations etc., but I doubt they will ever really relocate their high-fliers offshore. The high-fliers prefer to live in London.

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