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News

Redressing the School/Pupil Power Balance

103 replies

Chil1234 · 02/10/2010 09:26

School 'no touch' rules to be scrapped

Removing some of the paranoia surrounding the teacher/pupil relationship and giving teaching staff more confidence that they will be supported has to be a good thing.

OP posts:
seeker · 03/10/2010 13:33

So a council asked a Punch and Judy man to make sure his booth wouldn't fall down on the children sitting in front of it.

Another Council was asked to make sure its Christmas tree didn't fall down on passing shoppers.

A charity wasn't allowed to encourage people to swim in freezing water without ensuring that there were proper safety procedures.

Wow - nanny state gone mad, or what!

claig · 03/10/2010 13:44

Yes, and that is only the start of it. The Daily Telegraph writer understands it. The average progressive doesn't understand it.

"It is less about a modern terror of derring-do than a function of too much government ? an assumption that local councils and other state agencies should interfere in small things because they no longer know what to do about the big things."

It is about the favourite activity of progressives. Control over all aspects of our lives, however minor, however insignificant, however loony. That is why they are called loony left, and that is why Michael Gove has his work cut out, trying to restore common sense.

harpsichordcarrier · 03/10/2010 13:46

hold on, we are getting a few things mixed up here...
there is no 'no touch' policy in any school I have been in (several).
I have seen other teachers restraining pupils. I have certainly comforted upset pupils (though never in private - this is a risk avoidance policy from my point of view)
otoh it is not the same thing to say that the fact that teachers are not required or not encouraged or even told not to restrain pupils is due to a 'no touch' policy.
I definitely would not stop anyone physically from leaving my classroom, for my own physical protection and also, crucially, what the HELL would be the point?? does anyone really think that someone physically FORCED to stay in the classroom is actually learning anything??
in those situations, the policy is nothing to do with 'preventing' teachers from touching, and everything to do with the fact that restraining someone who is angry is totally counterproductive and will escalate matters.
I would only physically restrain a child in extreme circs to prevent harm to that child or others.

seeker · 03/10/2010 13:46

Yes, dear. You go back to giving your children lead painted toys to suck, and let them play on swings with nice hard concrete underneath them.

seeker · 03/10/2010 13:48

Oh, and the sunscreen thing. Can you imagine the chaos as 30 children lined up to be sunscreened by one teacher every lunch time? And the outrage on here "The teacher got sunscreen in my child's eyes - how can I get her sacked?"

harpsichordcarrier · 03/10/2010 13:50

the sunscreen thing is about TIME as well.
it would take AGES

claig · 03/10/2010 13:52

That is a straw man argument. Michael Gove won't let children play on swings with nice hard concrete underneath them. But he will put an end to many of the jobsworths' policies that were so beloved of the previous party.

seeker · 03/10/2010 13:56

So, it's no to swings with concrete underneath and yes to a falling Christmas tree.

claig · 03/10/2010 13:57

It's no to swings with concrete underneath and no to Labour lunacy.

seeker · 03/10/2010 14:01

Just as a matter of curiosity, could you find me an example of this Labout Lunacy that can actually be traced to its source?

It's a bit like ghosts and "PC gone mad" - in my experience when they are investigated they actually either completely disappear or turn out to have been something quite sensible and ordinary.

HerBeatitude · 03/10/2010 14:07

What a load of rubbish all this elf n safety gorn mad and PC gorn mad and peedo hysteria gorn mad is a Labour/ progressive thing is.

All these rules, child protection measures etc., started to happen in the eighties and nineties, when the tories were in power. Labour didn't do anything to abolish them, but the idea that they are a left wing thing is just a right wing slander. They happen under tory councils and tory education departments as well.

I don't think it's a conspiracy thing - just a big juggernaut that no-one seems to agree with but no-one appears to be able to stop.

claig · 03/10/2010 14:12

It's not a conspiracy thing, the left wing really believe it. Many councils, even under Thatcher, were left wing. Michael Gove is right-wing and he doesn't believe it. He will try and stop it, and the Daily Mail, who has always opposed it, will support him all the way. We'll have to wait and see how successful he is.

tethersend · 03/10/2010 14:20

Teachers, as wahwah says have had the power to restrain children for years- in fact, by doing nothing, ie not physically intervening in a fight, or fetching somebody who is willing to physically intervene, you can be sued for negligence. Any 'no touch policy' is erroneous, and leaves children vulnerable and staff at risk of litigation and dismissal.

I am a teacher, and train other teachers in positive handling (restraint). I have taught in mainstream, SN and EBD settings. The problems arise when teachers are not properly trained to physically intervene- not only do they not know how, but do not know when it is appropriate to do so; and when it's not. Is it appropriate to physically prevent a child leaving a classroom? Sometimes, yes. If they are going after another child to beat them up for example. If you believe they will harm themselves or others, then yes. Because they didn't follow your instruction, then no. Deal with it later.

The legislation needs to be clarified. Presently, a teacher can restrain a pupil if:

-A child is injuring others

-A child is injuring themselves

-A child is damaging property

-A child is behaving in a way that is likely to disrupt good order.

Any physical intervention taken must be reasonable, proportionate and necessary.

This means that if a pupil is charging at another holding a knife, you are justified in rugby tackling them to the ground- if they are verbally abusing you, you are not.

The vague definitions do not help- 'damaging property' could mean smashing a window; it could also mean snapping a pencil in two. Legally, you could restrain a child for this, but ethically? It would be completely inappropriate. The legislation relies on teachers' judgements of what is reasonable, proportionate and necessary, and there is rarely any provision to train them to effectively make that kind of decision.

As a teacher, you have a duty of care to keep children safe, and act in loco parentis.

Whilst I understand that streakybacon's son was damaged by restraint (and this in itself would indicate to me that staff weren't properly trained), the duty of care extends to other children in the school who also need to be kept safe. I have had to restrain children with ASD to prevent them self injuring. Keeping everyone safe is key.

Sometimes touch can be a calming influence, but this must be professionally judged on each individual's history by the teacher.

Why on earth this is news is beyond me.

onimolap · 03/10/2010 14:21

Seeker: DD's TA preferred it when she was allowed to sunscreen the children herself as it was quicker and less messy - both in terms if the children and the classroom. Fortunately, from the times I was present, I could see that she had better ways of classroom management than expecting 30 to line up and wait.

Her beatitude: grateful for links which show which acts came in when, if you have any. If Labour was anti, why did they not reform in this area (as they seemed to have no trouble with just about everything else)?

claig · 03/10/2010 14:27

Rough justice for teachers

I think Michael Gove is signalling his intent to restore balance in favour of teachers, so that they are not frightened to intervene. What are the teaching unions saying about Gove's plans. Do they support his attempt to help teachers or are they against what he is doing?

seeker · 03/10/2010 14:28

Well, the Christman accident thing does seem a bit bonkers, but around 2500 people go to accident and emergency over Christmas because of specific Christmas related accidents! I suspect that costs a lot more than the leaflets do!
Anything else?

tethersend · 03/10/2010 14:32

What's the union reaction to the legislation that's been around for years, or What's the union reaction to Michael Gove pointing it out?

If you want to give teachers confidence to intervene, train them to do so. Without training, it's empty rhetoric.

claig · 03/10/2010 14:33

seeker. Just look through the world-renowned archive of the London Daily Mail, a paper now quoted from the shores of the United States to the heartland of China. It's all in there. It makes grim reading, but the Daily Mail feels a duty to report it and inform the public.

claig · 03/10/2010 14:35

I hope Gove will work with teaching unions to train teachers. But, in the meantime, teachers also face the threat of unfounded accusations from violent pupils. Gove wants to stop the lunacy and support teachers carrying out a difficult job.

onimolap · 03/10/2010 14:38

Seeker: me again: I've just checked the HSE web page and the main Act was in 1974, so presumably under Wilson (labour) and there was a new Health and Safety Offences Act also in 2008. I don't think labour can be absolved.

seeker · 03/10/2010 14:38

You are joking, aren't you, claig. Please tell me you're not serious.

tethersend · 03/10/2010 14:39

No, Gove wants to garner support from the teachers and those who see education as needing right-wing intervention. If he really wanted to support teachers in this way, he would ensure that training in physical intervention is mandatory for all school staff.

Unless you could tell me what he has done other than point to existing legislation?

seeker · 03/10/2010 14:40

No, you're not/. i wasn't sure, but you last post has convinced me. Well done - you've kept it up for ages, haven't you?

Are you going to create someone else, or are you sticking to just being daftpunk, now you've been rumbled as claig?

ravenAK · 03/10/2010 14:41

It's amazing how few teachers appreciate his saintly supportive efforts, I must say. Grin

It might play with the DM readership, but no, you aren't going to have much success selling Gove to the teaching professionals he's rushing to 'support', I fear.