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Original poster

Pope's visit 'a huge success'... am I missing something?

43 replies

Chil1234 · 20/09/2010 10:18

Seems that the consensus of press reporting is that the Pope's visit was a 'massive PR hit', and that he has won over British hearts and minds. I'm quite astonished. Presumably the people writing these reports were exposed to the heady atmosphere of the live gigs, watching him preach to the converted crowds of happy nuns, the baby-kissing and so forth. Maybe they're reflecting the fact that no-one got shot and only a few were arrested? The big apology for the widespread abuse of children was certainly a good move - provided it means action and not just words.... But winning hearts and minds? I really think that's overstating it quite badly.

OP posts:
stubbornhubby · 21/09/2010 10:11

PaulineCampbellJones

it was a demonstration against the catholic church, its values, the way it has handled the child abuse scandal, and against this visit being deemed a State visit.

my point was that it was the biggest anti-church demo - anti any church - in living memory. I actually don' think that would have happened if it hadn't been a State visit. Issuing that invitaiton - and the Pope's acceptance of it - was misconceived and had unexpected consequences: who would have anticipated 10,000 marchers? I understand that the organisers themselves planned with the police for 2000.

abr1de · 21/09/2010 10:22

No, the last Pope's visit was a PASTORAL visit.

'but we've paid for him to come over and offend us.'

Yes, and I paid for George Bush's and President Zuma's state visits. Get over it. Everyone pays taxes that go towards things they don't approve of.

abr1de · 21/09/2010 10:25

Plus: the king of Saudi Arabia. The president of China. President Putin. I paid for those as a tax payer.

AbsofCroissant · 21/09/2010 10:30

And in the past ... Mugabe. And when Peter Tatchell attempted a citizens arrest - he and his friends were manhandled by the police, and Mugabe was sent off to finish his xmas shopping.

stubbornhubby · 21/09/2010 10:43

none of those other heads of state paraded up and down the streets of london and edinburgh, surounding themselves with small children, expecting cheers and applause.

Here is a list of previous State Visits

www.royal.gov.uk/RoyalEventsandCeremonies/StateVisits/InwardStatevisits.aspx

yes, some pretty unpleasant people. the pope is in good company - and he's the only one to be greeted by a demonstration of >10,000 ordinary people...

BadgersPaws · 21/09/2010 10:47

Bush, Zuma, Putin, Mugabe and the Saudi Arabian King are all undeniably Heads of State. Furthermore they came here to discuss political issues.

The Pope's status is far more complicated, go and read the "Popes visit costing UK taxpayer £12 million" thread for more information. The Pope also came here to basically say "Hi" to his followers, I don't think there's been any political discussions at all.

It's probably because of that complexity over his status under international law that the prior visit wasn't a state visit.

stubbornhubby · 21/09/2010 10:56

A head of state coming here does not mean a State Visit. Heads of State are frequently in the UK without it being a State Visit.

from the palace website
"State visits are formal visits to the UK by Heads of State from overseas, with the aim of strengthening Britain's relationships with other countries.

There are usually two incoming State visits each year. Invitations are sent on the advice of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office"

It would have been perfectly possible, and respectable - and appropriate - for the Pope to come here simply as a church leader, visting his followers - as indeed the last pope did.

amidaiwish · 21/09/2010 11:01

The Queen invited him here
if you have a problem take it up with her.

Original poster
Chil1234 · 21/09/2010 11:04

Much as it was always a risk that the thread would descend into references to Nazis, accusations of pope-bashing and so forth, I'm still interested in if people thought it was a 'huge success' or not.

OP posts:
amidaiwish · 21/09/2010 11:04

i think it was
the biggest fear for the Pope was of "indifference"
he certainly didn't get that.

BadgersPaws · 21/09/2010 11:08

"The Queen invited him here"

Well legally yes, but it was a Government decision.

And the Pope needn't have accepted the offer to make it a State Visit. The Pope knows his status is complicated and that's a part of why the last Papal visit wasn't a Sate Visit.

Knowing that these are controversial times for the Papacy and knowing that this country is deep in a financial mess you would have thought that it would have been prudent to have made clear via diplomatic channels that a State Visit wasn't a good idea but a Pastoral one was.

stubbornhubby · 21/09/2010 11:11

amidaiwish
of course the queen didn't invite him herself! Smile The last government invited him. The queen doesn't choose State Visits.

Actually it must have been quite embarassing for the queen, as a head of a church that the Pope doesn't regard as a real church, and is actively seeking to undermine.

Why do you think she met him in Scotland? (because she isn't head of the church in scotland).

AbsofCroissant · 21/09/2010 11:11

Was it a success? I don't think so.

I was actually quite surprised (should probably spend less time on MN) that most of the media was going "it's all so fabulous! everyone's really happy he's here! Apart from that guy, but yeah, it's all good" meanwhile, on MN, there was muchos griping, so I wasn't paying that much attention to what the media said.

HouseOfBamboo · 21/09/2010 11:20

I think those who think he's a lovely man who it is an honour to see got what they wanted.

The fawning style BBC's live coverage put me in mind of a royal wedding. When they did interview any protesters the intro seemed to be along the lines of 'and here are some party-poopers - what's this on your banner?' which only took a few seconds, then it was back to the Popey the Pop Star show.

LoisCommonDenominator · 21/09/2010 18:21

"Especially when the Pope starts labelling other groups Nazis."

He didn't. He said that the Nazis were atheists. You can certainly argue with that, but he didn't call anyone a Nazi.

And unless you are talking about sex between married Catholic couples, the condom argument doesn't add up. It's abstinence he expects, not unprotected sex. Although if you are referring to married couples, then I do think that condoms should perhaps be allowed under the Doctrine of Double Effect. Though that's definitely debatable.

LoisCommonDenominator · 21/09/2010 18:22

To get back to the OP, though, no I would hardly call his visit "a resounding success" in PR terms... could have been worse is the most I can say.

LoisCommonDenominator · 21/09/2010 18:24

(obviously in my first post there, I'm referring to married couples where one of them is HIV+)

edam · 21/09/2010 22:52

Yeah, the truth from the Vatican's and HM Government's point of view is probably 'could have gone a LOT worse so we are treating it as a PR success'.

And the Pope's flown back to yet another scandal at the Vatican bank...

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