How do I support messy friend sort her house & mindset without doing it for her

[Cteypy]

Friend has always been messy, not a hoarder, just doesn't see the need to clean & tidy. No DC & now lives alone after partner left as didn’t want to live in a hovel despite him trying to change her messy ways. She still doesn’t fully see that others don9want to live like this but doesn’t want it to impact on future relationships.

I'll help out but not prepared to be her cleaner as she watches on! How do I support her with cleaning tidying her house, learning new regimes, without getting in a situation where I'm doing it for her & nothing changes in her mindset.

Anyone got experience or wisdom to share

The organised mum method might be a place to start. It's not just for mums. It offers plans and structured sort outs and cleans eg bootcamp to get started

Honestly you can try but I think until she figures it out herself you will have to keep repeating.
my dd was the same and it was a cycle of me putting in so much effort only for her to keep going back to her old ways until she has finally cottoned on herself that it’s easier to have less stuff and tidy as she goes🤷

This is her life, so you say something like 'When you've decided what you want to tackle first, give me a shout because I'm happy to give you a hand with some bits'.

Also encourage her to get therapy to tackle whatever is underneath.

And take her out for a drink/coffee to talk to you about it all.

You need to think about boundaries perhaps, is that an issue for you?

Other than suggesting that she might benefit from counselling I would not get involved. She is an adult and presumably capable of googling and searching for information on YouTube.

if she wants to. If she doesn’t, no amount of cajoling on your part will make her see the light.

To be honest, you can’t. It sounds like you’ve had conversations about the situation, and she doesn’t recognise there’s a problem, and until her mindset changes, things will stay the same. If a partner leaving isn’t a wake up call, I don’t know what is.

I know you want to help her, but don’t get involved. You can spend a week tidying and sorting, and despite promises of keeping it that way, she’ll revert back.

You see, I'd love to do this. Help her clear out her stuff and get it to the tip. Then it's the reset things like bins everywhere. Enough space for clothes. Maybe she needs a few washes putting on etc. You are the organiser but she actually has to go through everything. You are there to instruct her.

Has she asked you for help? If not, I don't think you can impose it on her.

You can't change her. She needs to want to do it for herself. Any interference could be perceived as nagging and may well cause her to dig her heels in even more mentally. Someone doing it for her wouldn't help either long-term.

I agree the Organised Mum Method is excellent for cleaning regimes. It's a great structure to work to if you can stick to it.

For tidying and general sorting out I found Dana K White very helpful, particularly the audiobooks. She has several books. "Decluttering at the Speed of Life" and "Organising for the Rest of Us" are probably the most useful.

I used the Housy app to set up a regular schedule with tasks. I ignore this app frequently, but like knowing there's theoretically a structure.

What helps me is someone to "supervise" or keep me company while I work. I don't need someone to help me, but it is helpful to have someone around so I can't wander off/ get distracted as easily. That person also needs to understand that some days I can get on with it and other days I can't face it. There is no predicting which day it will be in advance and if it's a no today, back right off.

It's lovely you want to help, but she'll do it when she wants to and not before. She'll also probably have several setbacks along the way. She may well do it all and then fail to maintain it. This cycle could go on for years.

Naturally clean and tidy people often don't "get it" and can be a barrier to helping. If your advice comes across as sanctimonious (even if not meant like that) then it won't help. Provide her with the resources to help, give her time to have a think and then let her know you're there if she wants you around.

She's not seeing the problem. Views the issue as being not enough storage, house too small, hobby stuff takes up space - that sort of thing.
Hoping partner leaving will indeed be a wake up call as know she wants another relationship. She's not asked for my help with the house just with emotion support following break up.

Don't think I've issues with boundaries though know it would be so easy for me to clean and sort her house and it could easily be done in a day, but of no long term benefit to her. Therapy may be a way forward if she can see the point of it - she has money.

How do people's mind sets get changed in situations like this?

You can't make another person see a problem they don't think is there.

Did XP tell her bluntly that her messiness was why he left? If that doesn't get through to her, you haven't got a hope in helping her see it.

The other things that's worth considering, if she has money, is getting a cleaner.

I'm not great at keeping on top of my house, and frankly my problem isn't with cleaning it's with tidying. However, what it does do is force me to tidy a minimum of once a week so the cleaners can come. It's not always an amazing tidy and I still probably own a bit too much stuff and I am sure my house could be tidier. But it means it never gets truly awful.

I think on top of that it can be helpful to have someone basically just with you while you sort the house out, but I fear she has to actually want to sort it first.

I.e. if I have someone with me while I sort through my wardrobe I can be relatively ruthless whereas I'm terrible at doing it on my own. But I do at least know I have to clear out wardrobe/shoes/whatever at least once every couple of years & that it should probably be once a year.

I believe the breakip was a long time coming and he'd tried his hardest to help her make changes so they could both live more comfortably. She told me he accused her of weaponosed incompetence and despite loving her wasnt prepared to live like this anymore.

She seems to have interpreted this as if the house had been bigger and we'd had a some better storage boxes all would have been well. She's an intelligent person with a good job yet doesn't get it. Presume she must be capable of maintaining a level of tidiness in her work environment

If she doesn't see it as a problem you can't help her.
She needs to figure it out for herself.

As a naturally tidy person I struggle to understand how people can live life this, but I keep my lips buttoned in other people's cluttered houses as it isn't my business.

Just seen your latest post. Sorry, but I agree with the weaponised incompetence comment. Just how hard can it be to keep on top of things once the place is tidy?

If you could tidy and sort it in a day it doesn’t sound that bad to be honest.

I spend my life chasing my tail. I am horrendous at cleaning and cooking. Awful! When my husband has time and puts his mind to it he can do a 100 times better job in a single hour and it’s soul destroying. I saw her ex accused her of weaponised incompetence and honestly want to cry. Not much help but try not to make her feel as less than because she can’t get the place to what you all see as normal. To be honest I’d be thinking tell her ‘you’ve better things to worry about but it would help you to get it sorted so why don’t you get a cleaner in the odd time’

I'm not great at keeping on top of my house, and frankly my problem isn't with cleaning it's with tidying.

This is me, by the time I’ve tidied I don’t even get to the cleaning part

Does she want you to help her? Honestly, if she can’t see it herself then you’ve got a horrible battle on your hands where all your efforts will be turned into you being the bad guy, Support her for sure (if she asks) and emotionally, but she doesn’t sound ready for a big clear out and if it’s only you who wants to do it then it’s not your place. She’s an adult and makes choices to live as she pleases. Unfortunately we sometimes have to stand back and watch others do things that harm them.

I have a friend who sounds even worse than this, her adult DD is still living at home as well, and I don’t know how the DD copes as the house is appalling. I’ve had the same thoughts about helping her, but another friend helped her clear up a while ago and it just ended up back in the same state, as there is obviously some sort of underlying issue there. I’ve not said much to her, just the occasional gentle comment, and sometimes I think I am normalising how messy and dirty her house is, but on the other hand as her friend I think the best thing I can do is just be around to support her when she wants to do something. It’s painful though, I never want to go round to her house because it’s so horrible.

Maybe tiny steps are the way? If she mentions the hobby stuff is disorganised encourage her to get the storage boxes, and then help her to sort this stuff out. Etc

It might be worth helping her in the first instance so she can see what a clean and tidy house looks like and how that makes her feel and then let her get on with it with some support.

Some very intelligent people are clutter and grime blind. Just been on holiday with two relatives like this, they leave things everywhere and think that leaving dishes to soak in grimy water constitutes washing them. One was saying in all seriousness that the state of their house was due to having DCs, but it’s been a state long before that. In their case one of them is diagnosed as ND and I am pretty sure the other person is as well.

There is nothing you can do, except suggest a cleaner and be a bit more truthful. If you find the state of the house unsettling, refuse to meet there and tell your friend to come to your house.

Thing is - until she recognises why her partner left and unless she sees it as a problem - you can’t help her.

Help is assisting someone to achieve their own goals. She doesn’t have this goal (hopefully just yet!)

If you go in and tell her she basically needs to sort her shit out you are interfering and dictating to her how she lives her life.

I don’t think anyone would argue it isn’t done with best intentions - nor that it would it benefit her. But she is happy with how she lives her life.

Support her emotionally with the break up and help guide her towards acceptance if the real reason and if and when she gets there you can say “I’m happy to help you organise if that’s what you want?”.

I wouldn’t bother helping her unless she asks. There is no point.

rookiemere It does seem time for some truth although that may upset her. I'll be doing her a disservice not calling her out on her 'truth' about lack of space etc.

I'm fairly organised and tidy but a few of my friends are not. They are always saying "oh you must help me" and I'm not sure how to tell them I enjoy cleaning/tidying my own home but I've no interest in doing it for others! But seriously like another user suggested if they need a hand with a particular job I'm happy to help.