How do I support messy friend sort her house & mindset without doing it for her

[Cteypy]

Friend has always been messy, not a hoarder, just doesn't see the need to clean & tidy. No DC & now lives alone after partner left as didn’t want to live in a hovel despite him trying to change her messy ways. She still doesn’t fully see that others don9want to live like this but doesn’t want it to impact on future relationships.

I'll help out but not prepared to be her cleaner as she watches on! How do I support her with cleaning tidying her house, learning new regimes, without getting in a situation where I'm doing it for her & nothing changes in her mindset.

Anyone got experience or wisdom to share

It sounds like her ex-dp has already tried this, and unless she brings the subject up, I’m not really sure it’s your place to mention it.

I know you are itching to help and can see how it would improve your friends life. But don’t. You can’t. Meet her outside her house if going there bothers you.

My sister was like this. I bought her all nice storage things and went to tidy up with her. Within less than a week it was as before - because it’s systems that keep something up together and she didn’t create the system.

Your friend has to create the system for how it stays tidy.

Thing is, it’s probably not ‘weaponised incompetence’ at all. I come across to people as highly organised, on top of everything, was a high flyer at work etc - but I CANNOT keep my house tidy. I try so so hard, have read the books, tried different strategies but I just can’t do it. It’s hard to explain to people who are naturally tidy, and I hate myself for being so useless. Being accused of weaponised incompetence wouldn’t help me improve in any way apart from making me feel even more shit.

TeaAndCakeMakeThingsBetter what* *would you like from a friend like me? I'm keen to understand what I can do (for my friend) as know that imposing my values or becoming her cleaner isnt the way forward

This will not help her. She knows, but isn't in a time or place to sort it out. She may never be.

YOU want her house to be clean and tidy. She has to want this in her own time and space. You nagging at her will not make her get there any faster. It's more likely to make her worse.

Her wanting to sort it and being able to sort it are two different things.
You'll just make her feel even more shit if you have a go and she may not take it in the way you hope.

If you are not somebody who understands that she is like this and probably always will be then butt out.

Anyone who thinks "I just don't understand, how hard can it be?" are not the people who can help her. Judgy sanctimonious people don't get it.

It's hard FOR HER and no amount of interference from anybody else will change that.

The truth is that it’s not actually a problem for her. She’s ’happy’ to carry on as it is, even if she professes that she doesn’t like the situation. In many ways, ex-dp and you are imposing your values on her. For example, my dh likes to wash up as he goes along, and maintains that this is correct way of doing things. I’m a wash-up everything at the end type of person. Different systems works for different people.

You could tidy one space with her. Her living/reception room.
This is the room where you gather.

Storage boxes to store things that are not best in that space would be an idea.

Once she manages that space, she might enjoy being helped to tidy her kitchen pantry/fridge and help putting food shopping away.
One bathroom, one living room and a clean kitchen is all one person needs to reside healthily..

Has she actually asked you for help though? I find it very uncomfortable if people offer to get me sorted out - I know what I need to do, and I also know it’s not that hard in principle so I hate people offering as I should be able to do it myself, and it makes me feel very judged. I KNOW you are judging me but I don’t need you to point it out however well intentioned you are 😂 The only thing that has really helped for me, as a pp has said, it to get a weekly cleaner which gives me a deadline by which I have to tidy so she can clean.

You're describing your boundary issue.

She hasn't asked you to help her with a problem, because she doesn't see it as a problem.

You're talking about fixing the problem you think she has.

Why are you trying to change another person's mindset?

This is incredibly patronising - Once she manages that space, she might enjoy being helped to tidy her kitchen pantry/fridge and help putting food shopping away.
The person is messy, not incapable of thinking for herself!

I accept pps comments about me seeking to impose my values upon my friend re having a clean and tidy home. She has asked for my support following a relationship breakup of which the mess in her home was a very significant cause. And my friend wants another relationship in the future.

While she hasnt asked for help, or even acknowledged, the part played by the house mess in the breakup, I don't feel I'll be overstepping by raising the subject which would be done with kindness and from a place of love.

We are close friends of very many years. The consequence of her not changing her living environment is likely to be more heartbreak when another relationship fails. I'd like to open her eyes to that possibility even if others label me as nagging or judgey.

In your first post, you stated that your friend is not a hoarder. However, this update would suggest that she is. Her comment about not having enough storage is a classic hoarder statement as well as all the multiple other excuses she will have. She will probably tell you that she has started tidying but her "tidying" will be moving objects from one pile to another without getting rid of anything at all. It's quite a talent, really, and is known as churning. It's a good thing that there are no children as this would not be fair on them. I really think her ex-partner has made the right decision. She will always choose the "stuff" first. It's very sad but but there are very few people who want to live in an environment that is rivalling the municipal tip and this man is one of them. Unless she decides that she has a problem, absolutely nobody can help her, however well intentioned. Sadly, the problem will only get worse with time.

You have neither the legal nor moral right to insist that your opinion about how someone should keep their own house is more important than theirs.

Oh dear.

You are really not listening to what people are saying - just like your friend!

Ask your friend what help she wants. Support your friend to find her own way through, don't impose your opinions on her.

It doesn't matter if it 'comes from a place of love' you're still overstepping healthy boundaries for your own emotional gratification.

Mention to her that you are thinking of doing a car boot sale to get rid of some things you no longer need and make some money, and would she like to join you.

Your update confuses me - I imagined the house to be in a horrific state, but given that you've also said "could easily be done in a day", it can't be all that bad at all.

Anyway, best thing I think you can do is try to find her a boyfriend who doesn't car about the mess, because that's what she's after. In fact, you could almost say that it's as much of a perquisite as any other feature would be - we all have our ideal types and hopes as to what they will be like.

I know of two couples who live in what can only be described as what looks like the aftermath of an earthquake, and yet they are all as bad as each other. I swear it's the "couldn't give a toss about it" quality they possess which allows them to be so devoted to each other.

You also ask How do people's mind sets get changed in situations like this? I guess the same as they might with anything else - living life can, in itself, be the game-changer, seeing how we are all liable to have different needs which change as we age. Likewise our priorities change, our attitudes change, our goals change, and so on.

I am lucky, because I can be ruthless and very pragmatic when it comes to "things", and I will die on the hill that my home is more than big enough for two adults, therefore if I catch myself thinking I need more storage, I tell myself that no, I need less things. Then I begin a de-clutter accordingly.

We all have stuff we don't want to or can't part with - for reasons I won't bore you with, I have two washing machines as one is used for work. This is essential for what I do, and my home has to accommodate it as it's non-negotiable, but that's not what "normal" homes would have. I am also a sod for keeping stacks and stacks of bed linen, as pillow cases & duvet covers can always be used as underslips for the main covers.

But clothes, shoes, anything like that, I try very hard to keep on top of, and frequently tell myself I don't need any more clothes or shoes, because what I am actually needing is opportunities to wear them. I don't get to wear 3/4 of what I own, and I only have one double wardrobe full of clothes.

Hoewever, when it comes to chocolate, my discipline is much less present. We're all different.

She wants emotional support after a breakup. She isn't going to react kindly to you lowkey blaming her for the breakup.

She's a grown woman and is entitled to have her house how she likes. It isn't up to you to change her mindset.

Purely FYI, " judgey" isn't a word.

I am only saying this to highlight what I already said in my PP, which is that we're all different, and different things piss different people off.

I get pissed off by seeing made up words such as "judgey", and others such as "chill" and "cringe" used as adjectives instead of verbs.

You get pissed off by the state of your friends house.

Others get pissed off by swearing, while some people cannot abide sentences which begin with "and".

And on it goes.

Purely FYI, " judgey" isn't a word.

Judgy is a word, it's a shortened word meaning judgmental. Informal words, slang words are still words.

Judgy is a word, it's a shortened word meaning judgmental. Informal words, slang words are still words.

😂😂😂

I realise it it is a word by virtue of the fact that it can be spoken and that people use it. I also know full well what it means. Thank you for this.

It does not change the fact that it's some made up crap by people who can't be bothered to use the correct word, which has only one more syllable. It also doesn't change the point I am making.

If anything, you are confirming it, that is to say different things piss off different people, which again, many thanks.

I can’t find the quote as the thread has become derailed by non relevant side bar sniping, but someone said she should find a boyfriend who doesn’t mind the clutter. That’s probably the best way for her to go. My niece and nephew seem pretty happy living in filth together.

I think your timeline is off.

She's upset because of her breakup. There is no imminent danger of her messy house causing another relationship breakdown - that is so far away from her current reality and priorities. Just be the emotional support she is asking for.

Do you remember when Bridget Jones was crying, watching sad movies, eating ice cream out of the pot etc? Would she have thanked someone trying to Help by getting her to tidy up in the midst of that emotional processing, on the grounds that it is Good For Her and she won't get another boyfriend until her living room is tidy? Respect her priorities and where she is right now. Until she decides it's a problem, it's not a problem.

Honestly I think you are overstepping. Unless she has asked for your help then it is not your place to get involved unless she is a danger to herself which it does not sound like. Sounds like you have to accept that she lives a different way to you.