Men not pulling their weight at home

[Judy1234]

www.telegraph.co.uk/education/main.jhtml?xml=/education/2008/03/09/st_housewives.xml

Why do these women tolerate it? How do the inequities start out?

This is a hard one isn't it? I think it should be 50/50 when dh is home, I am a stay at home MUM not a stay at home MAID

I am very worried about what will happen when I go back to work

Talk about it. Write a short list of the tasks there are to do and divide them fairly (don't share them, split them)

I think Xenia's advice to actually write a list of all tasks and then try to allocate them on a fair division of labour basis is the right one.

It's extremely hard to really understand what the other partner has to achieve in his/her day unless it's written down in black and white.

For example, my partner wanted us to have lunch together this coming Friday - we have a meeting at the lawyer's together in the morning and so he suggested we pick up our daughter from school together and go to a restaurant afterwards.

In fact, I have another meeting in the afternoon (which he knew about) and I just cannot possibly manage to get my daughter back home and settled with the babysitter in time for that meeting if I have lunch with him AND do all the micro-errands and chores that I need to do on a Friday before my stepsons come for the weekend. When I explain, he tries to understand - but it isn't easy for him. He thinks: meeting at lawyers, lunch, other meeting - why is her day so busy? He just doesn't factor in the micro-logistics (because he doesn't have them).

Query - but what do you do if you do have an agreed division / system and DP just doesn't do the stuff like he says he will, but firmly holds a belief that he DOES do it?? Also doesn't do it when he's feeling tired which is quite a lot of the time at the moment

Have tried nagging talking, but this usually ends up in him having a BIG strop as he's rubbish at taking any kind of responsibility in any form of discussion / argument / debate / talk, have even resorted to bedroom bribery, which had little to no affect (maybe I'm doing it wrong !)

Have tried just mentioning it 'did you take out the bins???' but again DP falls back to the usual position of 'stop nagging - I'll do it when I want to...you're oppressing me (WTF?)' - not much help when the dustmen have just pulled out of the road

Am getting to the end of tether - a list is another form of oppression apparently as if he's going to do something, he will do it in HIS way, or not at all. Oh and the latest is Sat am housecleaning but 'I'll just do the absolute minimum to avoid divorce basics as you're so good / particular I know you'll go around and finish do the jobs anyway, so it's a waste of time to do them myself'

often sometimes I just feel it's like smashing my head against a brick wall again and again and again - he has no house pride whatsoever and would happily live like a pig in the proverbial - and I though (hoped) to have left living like that back in my uni days.

Yes, marriage has not quite lived up to my expectations of any kind of equal division of labour, and it's partly my fault as thy never change - he always was crap bad at housework.

bb99 - I think that when two people in a relationship have pretty different expectations of their standard of living (whether that be tidiness, cleanliness, quality of food or whatever else) that it is quite hard to make the person with lower standards perform tasks to the expectations of the person with lower standards...

Motto: get together with someone who has similar expectations of standard of living.

In fact, the more I look at couples, the more I think that this is a key issue for marital harmony - much, much more so than culture.

I think this is a really difficult one

I read lots of feminist tomes when I was pregnant about this issue and it made me VERY conscious about not 'gate-keeping' tasks - i.e. letting DH learn on-the-job about the babies and NEVER criticising him, even if he was leaving the house with no nappies and the baby wearing something inappropriate.

But re. housework, we have always had similar standards and he does as much (if not more) than me, so that hasn't been an issue.

However, I do think that if it WAS an issue it would be very difficult to change things, so I sympathise for women stuck in a rut on this one.

sorry, higher

Agree - housework is the only thing where we're poles apart and I have started to make helpful suggestions to DD about expectations of marriage and what to look for pre-nuptuals HUGE...bank account or pre-disposition to housework!

Wouldn't mind doing it all so much if he just made less of a mess himself, or even managed to find the dishwasher on a regular basis, but in his words he'd rather have a nice sleep and relax than do anything around the house...even DIY.

Motivational tips anyone??

bb99 - honestly and truthfully I think the only thing that can work is actually getting the partner with lower standards used to a home with higher standards by maintaing them yourself until such times as he/she realises how much nicer it is to live in a clean/tidy/well decorated home with lovely food and clean clothes in the cupboards etc at all times.

Which generally means the partner with higher standards working pretty hard for many years...

My mother has done this to my father - her parents had much higher standards of comfort at home than his and my father has definitely got incredibly used to my mother's standards over the years.

10 years and counting so far, and there has been a bit of progress. SIL shared a house with him years ago and she is AMAZED at how domesticated he has become, am going out now so I don't have to look at anymore dust (and put off shoving the dusters around until our collective efforts on Saturday - ha, ha, ha...

I do try to focus on the positive, but sometimes the prozac just isn't enough

bb99, I have noticed that dh too has a highly deluded sense of what he actually does. As this frustrates me so much, it is much easier if I do it all and then at least we both have an understanding that dh is a slovenly git.

I do worry slightly about the stereotypical images that this presents to our children - ds and dd get to see mummy doing all of the housework. They are clearly aware of the division of labour as ds (4) said to dh "daddy, mummy has more jobs than you so you should give her your wine and do the washing up"

I meant not gin, obviously!

GL - what lovely, intelligent, perceptive children you have - that's a fantastic thing for a dc to say! and did DH oblige?

Really am off now...

I am not really idealising having someone in the house full-time Anna because I know I would not like that. Somebody on permanent call would be OK though. DH is actually fairly domestically minded (leaving aside shopping/cooking so a fair sized chunk then) so in a lot of ways he is not bad. The inequality in our home is that I am more likely to have to work round things, give up my activities than he is.

He irons some shirts, I iron some shirts. But I do end up ironing all of DD's frilly things.... I think though that working for 3 longish days (out from 7.20 - 5.30) I am in a different position than if I was a SAH.

He did actually, once he had stopped laughing!

bozza - yes, I think we all need someone on permanent call... preferably a mother .

This article could so easily have been written about dh and I. We both used to have big careers. His took him abroad often, but I would go out almost every night that he was away, and was reasonably happy.

Since having dd he is still away every week, I have given up work, and end up looking after dd (now 2) both during the week and at the weekends, as well as doing all of the housework (we pay someone else to do ironing though). He would happily live in a pigsty, and complains (or ignores me or the request, saying he'll do it in a minute, but not bothering) if I ask him to do something. I don't get to go out any more, as there is no-one else to look after dd.

I am Not Happy.

Am just praying that things will somehow improve when dc2 arrives in October.

I would go back to work in the CantS case and use part of the money to pay for a daily housekeeper and babysitting so you can still go out say once or twice a week at night with friends once you're finished breastfeeding etc and the baby is over 6 months or something.

Different domestic cleaning standards is a realy problem for lots of couples and I've had men complaining about their ex wives never lifting a finder at home and men doing all the hoovering by the way. It's not just a male/female issue. My husband had slightly higher standards (because his mother did and my mother wasn't too bothered about housework) and I think over the years I moved up to his standards although I was always tidy as he is.

I think if you have three or more under 5s your life with be chaos anyway. Once you're over that then we found things like earning a bit more money so we could pay for a cleaner really helped. Having systems and routines so things are done in advance worked.

What are these jobs we're talking about? First of all is normal house cleaning.

Secondly is all the picking up of stuff, putting it in dishwashers, putting it away upstairs, laundry etc. I do this constantly and I don't think my teenagers do it enough (although which children really do - that doesn't really bother me). I've never lived with an adult male who wasn't fairly tidy or who expected me to do more than him at home.

"Query - but what do you do if you do have an agreed division / system and DP just doesn't do the stuff like he says he will, but firmly holds a belief that he DOES do it?? Also doesn't do it when he's feeling tired hmm which is quite a lot of the time at the moment sad".

On the question above you just have to leave it. Have the bin outside which the men forgot and then the next week have lots of black sacks in the drive because husband failed to put bins out. Third week he will get the message. But never do his jobs. If it's tidying up plates etc say if you won't do that then I think I won't either - let's see how we manage with a more laid back approach for the next few days until the weekends. Then when he wants a clean plate he'll find there aren't any.

Ha ha ha - like the bins idea a lot! Think I will do that in future .

He did remember this week and I'm focusing on being lovely to him about achieving this and not moaning about the million and one things he's forgotten (down to leaving his tissues around the house - he has a cold at the moment, yuck, yuck, yuck). Smile through gritted teeth - the praise approach has worked in the past!

I have an issue with the kitchen tho and plates, as I find it really stressful if the kitchen's a mess, prepping food etc for the young ones is a pain if you're knee deep in plates and muck! And I always seem to be the muppet who gets crippled on the toy mountain if it's left over the floor - but maybe that's cos I actually move around the house when I'm in it and don't just sit about a bit comatose .

Having moaned, I do appreciate things my OH does and he does have many talents that I don't, it just seems a bit like having a third child a lot of the time, who is even less capable of cleaning up after themselves than even the less than 1 yo! And he spends a lot of the pocket money .

CSWS - is there a CRB checked babysitting network near you, or a gym / pool with a creche? They can be a Godsend for a bit of time away from the dcs!

mmmmm my DH definitely suffers from the delusion of believing that he does much more than he does and that I do less than I do. Maybe because I don't go round making a big fuss about all things I pick up/put away etc.

My DH also resists the idea of lists (wonder why). He used to be very much - I'll do things in my own time/when I'm ready but he has improved a bit.

There are times when he is fantastic around the house and will do loads but he does tend to then do nothing and say, 'well last weekend I did....'

I think the whole debate is tricky cos he sees his job as work and home time as time 'OFF'. Fair enough but if you're a SAHM you don't get time off! Mind you this is one of the reasons I would rather be a SAHM cos I knew that if I worked I would still have to do majority of what I do now and work as well!

Not read it all, but my DH is definately in the 'does very little' camp but if challenged he would argue that he does loads!! I have arant and rave every so often, to very little effect so have given that up! Tried going on strike but that had very little effect as well!

General split of duties - I work 4 days a week and he does 5, but they can be any of the 7 days of the week as he works in retail.

I get the kids up - he stays in bed until he needs to get up as he is tired as the baby has kept him up all night, even though he doesnt shift his bum to see to him! I wash and dress them and feed them. He appears downstairs and some days (depending upon shifts) takes them to the Childminders and school. He will then come home and have his brekkie in peace and watch tv (football usually) until it is time to go to work.

I pick them up from school / CM - feed them, homework, get ready for bed and then do some chores and sort out his tea, packed lunches, etc. He swans in and has his tea and watches TV. I go to bed shattered and then he comes 2 hours later or so!

And so on,,,.

When he is around, he does very little unless asked - and even then itwill be on his terms / timescales - if I ask him to do something, it usuall means i would like it doing there and then and the tv can wait!

So I dont bother asking.... but I make him iron his own work shirts, and he cuts the grass - so that is ok!

andyrobo.....No....thats not your dh thats mine....unless he has a secret family aswell...that would explain why he is too tired to help.....

This sorry state of affairs only exists because women allow it to.

IMO

Well thats your opinion.....What would be your suggestion then...kick them out? Just interested.

This is a hobby horse of mine - women becoming complicit in their own oppression and visiting it on the next generation too.

For the present generation, I think it's easy to get people to pull their weight if they are fairminded. If they are not fairminded then possibly kicking them out is the only option.

For the next generation, the sons see their mothers doing most of the housework, so what on earth will they expect from their lives other than their other halves doing most of the housework. The daughters will think it is their lot too.

Break the cycle, that's what I think.