If you employ a cleaner...

[petitdonkey]

How much do you reasonably think they should do in two hours?

I have used the same lady for 5 years but have become increasingly dissatisfied and want to know the best way to approach her. FWIW, we have a very good relationship, she babysits for us, is very reliable - always turns up when she says she will and is a very nice person. In return, we pay her a good rate (£8ph) and give her a decent Christmas bonus (£100-150) plus a gift at Christmas and birthdays.

I just feel like she has become a bit complacent and, before anyone flames me, I just would like some advice as to how to approach it. (I've never been somebody's employer before!)

Today she was here for four hours - two hours of which was ironing (which wasn't finished) In the two hours cleaning she:

Stripped and made our bed (super king size)
Dusted two bedside tables and a chest of drawers (mirrored so can have fingerprints on)
Dusted my dressing table (but only surface she can see - didn't move anything!)
Hoovered our bedroom
Wiped sinks and surfaces in the en-suite
cleaned the floor
BUT - our shower is really quite dirty - the doors have limescale marks on them and the shower tray is mucky. (this is done weekly so surely should never get too bad?)
Hoovered the rest of upstairs section - two bedrooms and a landing but again, she doesn't even pull the beds straight in DCs room (fine as I expect them to do it but...)
Wiped around family bathroom but again, not very thoroughly.
Hoovered the stairs

I'm not sure - does that seem fine? In essence, she's cleaned the master bedroom and ensuite (not completed), the family bathroom (not completed) and hoovered two rooms and a landing.

Upstairs this still leaves me with three bedrooms and two bathrooms plus two more staircases!!

She does another two hour stint later in the week where she only cleans the downstairs floors, dusts the living room (we only use it in the evening so no toys etc) and the same in our snug. She does another two hours ironing on that day plus walks the dog for an hour so 11 hours a week total.

We do have a large house so maybe I'm expecting too much but I knwo that when she goes away I do it in half the time.

If you've managed to stick with me for this long - its a miracle!! I guess I just want to know
a) am I being unreasonable and expecting too much
b) if I'm not - how do I raise it with her? I don't really want to upset her but don't want to be a fool either.

Thank you so much for reading - any advice is genuinely appreciated!

OMG - monster post!!! I totally forgot that my biggest bugbear is her mobile phone usage! Sometimes if feels like it's glued to her ear. I know that I need to discuss it with her but I think I've been too chicken.

If it's at all relevant, I'm always busy when she is here, this morning I was cleaning the kitchen and at one point I was mopping the floor and she was standing chatting to me whilst I attempted to be as monosyllabic as possible!!

I need a new cleaner don't I????

My cleaner comes for two hours.

She:

Dusts all vertical blinds. 7 in total, not immaculately but good enough.
Cleans en suite bathroom (sink and shower) and does a better job than I would
Cleans main bathroom and toilet
Cleans downstairs cloakroom
Wipes all kitchen sides
Thoroughly cleans glass kitchen table
Mops kitchen/dining room/hall
Hoovers front room, 5 bedrooms, stairs and landing. Doesn't do under beds.
Dusts surfaces, mirrors mirrored wardrobes in bedroom.

My cleaner comes for 3 hours. I pay the agency £14 an hour.

In that time she:

cleans downstairs loo and sink and mirror
Upstairs bathrooms x 2 (floors, sinks, mirrors, shower and bath)
dusts whole house and cleans all mirrors
hoovers whole house including stairs
cleans glass sliding doors of playroom
mops kitchen and dining room floors
cleans kitchen sides
decobwebs when necessary
changes beds when I ask her
plumps all sofa cushions

HTH

I don't think £8 per hour is very much. I pay my cleaner £10 an hour. If you look for someone else I think you should expect to pay more.

This is going to be tricky to tackle after five years. Has she always worked like this or is it a gradual detiriation? She should really be cleaning more thouroughly than this. I am a cleaner and never just give surfaces a wipe over, everything is moved and cleaned properly which also results in the place being left tidy as well. Certainly the shower should not be left with water marks or soap residue or anything else.
I would be mortified if any of my customers were doing any of the cleaning themselves, that is what they are paying me for!

Not sure the best way to handle this, so sorry not much help there. But I would say you are certainly not getting a decent clean. Good luck.

Hmm. Sounds like too much to expect of her for 2h cleaning? Ours ones for 3h and will do downstairs loo (spotless), kitchen (spotless), Hoover and dust living room, 2 flights of stairs and 2 bedrooms, and family shower room ( fairly clean but shower door still has some line sale after she's finished). I'm not satisfied either as I would like the house spotless, but I dot think I could do any better in 3h myself and think it would be unreasonable to expect her to. No ironing and no phone (except emergencies).

Thank you everyone. Akiss - interesting re money - it's what she asked for (started at £7 then rose to £8) but good for me to know that it may well cost me more.
Abby - I needed someone to look at my list and tell me if it was too much, thank you. (Just to clarify through that 2hrs is just to do upstairs, she does another 2hrs downstairs on a different day)

I think that I definitely need to talk to her about mobile phone usage and maybe just begin by drawing attention to the shower being left mucky today - whether or not her hours need to be upped is, I guess, a separate conversation.

doshusallie - can I use your cleaner please?!
somuchslimmer - I think there has definitely been a deterioration but in the early days I had three very young children and she would often hold the baby when I went to the loo or popped to the post office - I was so very glad of her reliability and she was almost like a (paid) granny!! Maybe that meant that when the children got bigger she never filled the time with more things to do. Very much my responsibility to manage - in an ideal world she would choose to resign from cleaning but still babysit for us!!

Thank you everyone - lots of food for thought.

Anyone else in the evening?

My angel does ironing and laundry so couldn't tell you how long she's taking to do the cleaning (she lightens my load for 8 hours a week).

I'm a cleaner. I charge nearly twice what your cleaner does, but I do get a lot done.

In two hours I can do a good job cleaning a reasonable two-bedroom house. If it's really filthy and cluttered, that can slow me down. But, in two hours, I can clean:

A kitchen quite well, exteriors only (plus inside microwave). Floors cleaned with a mop or by hand, depending on what is needed.
Two bathrooms well (that includes getting muck out of grooves in shower door tracks, removing limescale... I use special products from a janitorial supply that mean less scrubbing.) I clean behind the toilet, and clean hard bathroom floors by hand.
Dusting two receptions and two bedrooms.
Hoovering and/or mopping all floors, including stairs.

Making beds will slow me down a bit, and I am willing to do ironing but am almost never asked to do so. Probably because I'm so expensive. Ironing and making beds are not my strong suits. I am much happier scrubbing toilets.

Let's see, on Friday, in just under 3 hours I cleaned a large house that had three baths (one four-piece, one with just a giant whirlpool bathtub, and one just a shower), the kitchen, three large bedrooms, two receptions (or three... it's sort of open-plan), and made two large beds. I mopped and hoovered all the floors, including stairs. It's a tidy, sort of minimalist house that is fairly easy to clean.

£8 is not a lot of money for cleaning, even in London, where cleaning is cheaper than anywhere else in the UK. People say £10 an hour is standard and I guess it probably is for a lot of independents. I'd say quite a few here in Oldham/Saddleworth charge a bit more than that and I charge slightly above the average for my area. I think a lot of it comes down to if the cleaner is serious about their business, carry insurance, pay all their taxes, and provide all equipment and supplies.

Re mobile phone: It is sometimes necessary for me to take a call. I keep it very brief and I don't just chat on it. (I also go to some part of the house where the client won't have to hear me.) I think it's very important for a cleaner to behave with a certain decorum. I always call my clients "Mrs. Lastname" unless they positively beg me to call them by their first names. I never help myself to anything to eat or drink unless they have made it very clear that they want me to feel free to do so (and then I make sure to wash my tea cup and put it away.)

Some people are very chatty and that's fine. I actually charge by the job (although I have an hourly rate in mind) and so if I get to chatting, that's up to me and my schedule. It never affects the job performance.

Thank you Katy - I think that pay is definitely an issue that I will have to think about. I know that I pay her the same or slightly more than all of my friends (£8 seems standard, I know 3 people who pay £7) but I know that agencies charge £14. I will talk to her on thursday if I'm brave enough and try to find a solution for both of us. She has not indicated that she would like more money - do I offer to raise her hourly rate but say that I expect to see more done? TBH - I do think that she could get far more done in the time she is here but maybe she isn't happy so is on 'go slow'? (I've honestly had no indication of this and she is very open with me.)

Big sigh.

as for carrying insurance and providing equipment - that is a definite no! I wouldn't like to speculate on whether or not she pays taxes. Certainly when you describe cleaning a bathroom, she is not thorough at all (I do the muck in shower doors!!) but she does iron beautifully....

No you're not being unreasonable.
If you have a problem with a cleaner then bite the bullet and address the issue asap. We had a cleaner who was lovely but she became increasingly more unreliable and in the end we parted company. She was v upset and said that she saw us as friends not clients. That was the problem in my opinion as she stopped being professional.
My mistake was I should have tackled the problem of her failing to turn up regularly right at the beginning. We paid £11/ hour. Now I have no cleaner
( large house) but my home has never been cleaner thanks to me following the Fly Lady regime!! I'm also £33 / week better off!

Hmmm, tricky.

Could you invent something that implies you have less time, a job from home or something and then write down everything you need doing in a certain time period. Tell her you will pay her more if she is willing to take on the new role ie more work, or if she's not confident, tell her you are happy to look for someone else. I would emphasise that there is no leeway, as you are too busy to do it yourself and also suggest a trial of a month.

Then, if you are not happy, just tell her it's not working out and give her a months notice.

I wish that I could be more assertive but she really is dear to us and an incredibly reliable babysitter which we don't want to lose. My children have all grown up with her and she is so familiar with our house.

I think that I will start on Thursday by asking why she didn't clean our shower today (it really hadn't been touched) and mention the mobile phone usage. Maybe hope that it goes from there? I've suggested that I will cut her hours when DC3 goes to school in September anyway so maybe ask if she wants to start cutting now? I have been feeling that, as a SAHM, it's getting silly paying a cleaner £88 per week... that's before babysitting which often doubles that total.

I am interested to hear your outcome as our cleaner is becoming more and more unreliable. She is often ill, she has hours to make up from previous weeks that she didn't do and my plans for getting thorough cleans done during times when we are away haven't happened due to various excuses. She does 2 hours and I have reduced her jobs down to the following, although most are done but definitely not thoroughly (i.e things are not moved, I find mess in corners like behind a folding shower screen etc.

Kitchen, bathroom and front room hoovered, kitchen and bathroom mopped
Stairs hoovered and either of one floor (basement or bedrooms, both small 11 ft square rooms)
Hob cleaned, usually pretty messy though.
Dusting, we have lots of nick nacs, not sure she moves many.
Cushions plumped
Bath , toilet and sink cleaned. Quite a lot of mirror and chrome to do, small bathroom though.

We reduce this down to either upstairs or downstairs every other week, so she can manage as she wasn't moving anything, she does it now but its not great. It is however better than me having to do it! Saying that, she isn't doing what I could manage in the time, reckon I could do pretty much the whole house in that time, with a.toddler wanting entertaining.

Katy, What products do you use to clean the shower. Sorry to hijack the thread

No problem!

If a shower has a lot of limescale, I will use this:

www.accommodationsupplies.co.uk/product/JH-00548-Jangro-Toilet-Washroom-Cleaner-Descaler-5ltr.-2x1

It has a low pH, but the form of acid in it is not one that combines with bleach to make a deadly gas, so I feel comfortable using it. I spread it over the glass/tiles with a scrubbie thing (I use one of those dish cleaners that has a scrubbie pad on the end and the handle can have dish soap in it. I don't put anything in it. I just like the handle/scrubbie combination for this job.)

For lighter jobs, I use Flash bathroom spray. I'd like to find a professional version of the same thing because it's really expensive (on sale for £1 a bottle, but when you go through as much as I do, it adds up.) But I haven't yet. I think Flash bathroom spray is really, really good.

To get the tracks cleaned, I'll use a toothbrush and/or this plastic putty scraper thing with a microfibre cloth over the end of it. To be honest, I could find more brushes and things to use because there are still little areas I simply can't get into. But, if I get what I can reach, and then use the shower head to spray in there and flush it all out, it's pretty good.

My cleaner comes for 4 hours once a week. In that time she:

Sweeps and mops all downstairs floors (hallway and one open plan living room and utility)

Cleans bathroom until it sparkles. Same to downstairs loo.

Polishes all mirrors and inside of windows.

Dusts all surfaces and moves stuff on them.

Empties bins.

Empties tumble dryer and folds laundry.

Does all ironing for me and 2 DCs (would take me about a hour to do).

When she has time left over, she (at her discretion):

Tidies our wardrobes so they look like Benetton wardrobes;

Cleans the oven;

Empties fridge/kitchen cupboards, does a thorough clean the puts stuff back.

Your cleaner is a bit lazy I think. I used to have one like that. I was also too afraid to say. One day I just lost it though. You're paying this woman to clean - she should clean!

many thanks

Why not keep the babysitting and ironing and find someone else for cleaning? Or take it on yourself for a little while anyway (sounds like you're already doing most anyhow!)
If you think you want to keep herdoing the sitting and ironing, I would suggest NOT talking to her about her cleaning standards, it's only going to cause upset on both sides, then you will potentially lose your best sitter which is going to be hard to replace.
It's not facing up to it and dealing with it I know but in my experience, I'd say it's unlikely the standards will improve (much) but it's quite likely your relationship will deteriorate.

How about the cowards way out? Just be out when she arrives, or be about to leave and hand her a list with everything you expect to be done in the two hours that she is there. Be specific, eg say 'Bathroom: behind loo, mirrors, floors, shower tray' rather than just 'bathroom'
If there are things left undone that you feel could have been done then bring it up gently the next time and say - "thank you for doing the bathroom so well but last time the shower tray was a left bit mucky, have you tried using Flash, I find it gets rid of limescale" etc etc
If that still doesn't work, then perhaps it is time to start just using her as a babysitter and get a new cleaner?
BTW I have a crap cleaner and am far too cowardly to have ever said anything - I think I had better try this myself too!

Thirtysomething - I was very relieved when I got to your last sentence, I was reading your post and thinking I should 'man up'

Will let you all know how I get on when she comes on Thursday.

Be careful how you word the shower cleaning .... Could you perhaps say " the shower needs a really good clean this week please" instead of "why didn't you clean the shower?" Of course you shouldn't pussy foot around her if she's not doing a thorough job (which she isn't), but it just sounds a little less urm, confrontational?

I'm a cleaner, I do consideraly more than that in two hours and make a good job of things but I'm really slow at ironing.

TBH I tend to agree with an earlier post, sack off her cleaning duties, in the nicest way and just have her for baby sitting and ironing.

Good luck.