The Socialisation Issue

[Marjoriew]

I always know when anyone is asking me about HE, that they are going to bring up the socialisation issue.
I realise it's an important issue, but it seems to me that it's the first thing people bring up when they are asking about HE.
It's like implying that if they aren't in school, they're not getting to mix enough with other children.
Why does socialisation have to take place within a child's peer group?
When asked, it feels as though the priority of others is that it doesn't matter a jot whether a child is happy being educated out of school or not to a better standard than in school - that it's so much more important that they are socialised.

MMM - don't base your decision th HE based on how many othe HE families you cam find in your area. There is no guarentee you or your dc will get on with them just because you chose the same route of education, and there is no guarentee you will like any of he groups either. I found many of them far too disorganized and wishy washy (but maybe that's just my area).

Honestly, I drove myself potty the first year we were doing this trying to meet other HE families, going to all the groups. It didn't suit us at all. It's only when I realised that just because we did HE, it didn't mean we have to make it our life and it's not the defining point of our family that we all became happier, ds found his stride in the clubs he wanted to join and made friends on his own terms. Also, if ds was at school I wouldn't like or have anything in common with every family in his year/class whatever, so it seemed silly to be pushing myself into groups assuming it would all be great just becasue we all chose to HE.

We found a couple of HE clubs (a couple of sports one s and an art one) that ds likes, and he has met a few other home educated children he really likes from those but the mostly does things in the eveninings.

That seems the sensible attitude lolapoppins. It does depend on where you live-also it depends on the other families-as you say- just because they choose to HE doesn't mean that you have anything in common or that the DCs will like each other. My SIL was much happier once she stopped relying on people she didn't much like. Her DCs followed their own interests and they have nothing to do with how you are educated. Other DCs don't care-it really isn't big on their agenda. It only seems to be adults who attach any importance.

I think there can be a big difference at different moments in a family's HE journey.

A family who have known they will HE from the start can have a really organic, gradually evolving social life which segues from the ordinary pre-school-y stuff into whatever it segues into - I'd say that 5/6th of the families we see regularly are NOT HEers.

But I think that a family coming out of school, particularly in traumatic circumstances, and particularly if they don't already know any HEers, can be really reassured by meeting a community of other people who are transgressive in this particular way. I have spent quite a lot of time at HE meet ups saying (a la sybil fawlty) "oh I know" and "oh, poor things" as a mother details the horror of her child's school experience - and it's much harder to have that conversation with people who still believe that, given the right nudges, school could have Got It Right.

I almost think some families need to find local HEers as part of the process of finding their feet in thenew lifestyle, which might not in the end involve many other HEers at all. Or it might. whatever.

On another note: I am not really up for detailing my children's social interactions, partly because, for me, it is too invasive of their privacy, but also because it will never reassure someone who is anxious about my children "missing out" on the schooled socialising experience. I could detail daily educational organised classes with other HE families, where the parents leave the children there and there are clear rules about interacting within the class environment, and set play times (i.e. as close as can be to school without being called one) and the doubter would still find something to be anxious about. NB I invented that school-esque situation for rhetorical effect...

The fact is, HE is societally transgressive. "What about socialisation" isn't actually about whether you can make enough opportunities for your child to play or work with other children (what's "enough" anyway?), or to interact with other people without parents in the background oops here's mr tesct... gtg

where was I?...

"What about socialisation?" is really about "How are you going to ensure that your children become people who understand societal norms and can function successfully within them?" with the underlying assumption that those norms are largely learned beyond the family. That's the bit to be addressing - when and how one's children leave one's constant guidance. and whether you need to be away from your family to discover how to function in a society that does not value the family unit.

and we can't overcome "what about over protective parents? THeir children wont'get the chance to develop social independence" except to challenge the idea that someone outside the parent-child relationship will have an infallibly better understanding of how much protection that child needs at any given time.

Children can only socialise, make friends and learn anything of value if they go to school. Parents are clearly unable to meet those needs or provide a well rounded academic education after the age of 5.

That's what has been drilled into us over the past 100 (?) or so years and that is what dominates most peoples thoughts when HE is mentioed. It's so ingrained.

A freind just posted a message on my fb wall asking if we were having a good week. I replied that yes we were, it's turning out to be a great week for ds, dh and I as we don't have to go anywhere, see anyone or do anything until saturday and we don't intend on leaving the house/garden until then (with all the driving we do to clubs and actiities, it is sheer bliss, I can tell you! And it's great to spend all this time with ds, even though he is homeschooled, I rarely see him as he is in and out of classes or playing with freinds most days!).

Anyway, my sister called me immediay after seeing it and laid into me about keeping ds isolated and how it was unfair on him not to be at school. What is her ds doing this week? Mostly playing in the house and garden as he has had a busy term at school and could do with a rest. Well, my ds has had a busy term
too, does he not deserve a week of just hanging round his house with his parents watching DVDs and relaxing? Grrr, sorry about that, but it has really wound me up!

"What about socialisation?" is really about "How are you going to ensure that your children become people who understand societal norms and can function successfully within them?" with the underlying assumption that those norms are largely learned beyond the family."

Yes it is all of that. However, it also means "How are you making sure that your child meets lots of people who aren't like him or her? How are you making sure that he/she learns to rub along with and work productively with people who he/she doesn't like and how are you making sure that your child makes friends (if he or she wants to) who aren't part of the "parent approved' circle"

But that might not happen at school either. Private or faith or village schools etc are all going to have a relatively narrow social mix, probably mostly made up of people quite like you and your children.

My parents-in-law have expressed that exact same concern, but would be over the moon if we got DS into a tiny local church school . There probably is more variety at my local HE group!

But most children don't go to private or faith or village schools!

Seeker, I know you had a bad experience. However, I would contend that that is down to your parents and not to home education per se. There are also a few people who have reached adulthood from home education and felt cheated that they have not been through school. I don't know how much of that is to do with age (and I don't know how long ago you were EHE). There are now more EHEers around than ever. EO had a handful of member families in the 1970s and now it has 4000+ member families and many people are not and never have been in EO.

Sheer numbers mean that there is more opportunity for EHEers not to be isolated and "odd". I understand RobberButton to be saying that you objections are possible at school as well. In fact, I was schooled throughout in the same small town in Scotland, attended a 300+ primary (7 years) and a 1000+ secondary (6 years). I had very few people I saw out of school (mostly at organised activities) and no people I was still in contact with after I'd been to university. There were various reasons for this (most of which I did not identify until I became a parent) and it has influenced how I've raised my DC. However, I was not unhappy with that situation while at school.

EHE has allowed me to watch over the social development of my DC - very necessary for my DD. From 16-18, she occasionally bemoaned lack of friends but recognised that she would stand out like a sore thumb at the local comp and, frankly, has only recently become somewhat accommodating to other people's needs. In the time she has spent with others (three months in UK school at 10, six weeks in Switzerland at 13 and 6 months in Germany at 14), she did not "make friends" and the social issues were the most difficult to deal with.

Parents sometimes do not see or cannot meet their children's needs. That is a shame. I am not sure that you can say that EHE parents are less (or more) likely to do so. As needs change as a child grows up, the parents need to change too. My DC's other parent has not changed, which is a source of great anguish (to all except him). Had the DC been in school, he would still have been the same person and I'm very unconvinced that 30 hours a week in another controlling environment would have helped them to grow out from under it. I have made social development a priority in our EHE. Other families' mileage may vary. That is OK.

"Seeker, I know you had a bad experience. However, I would contend that that is down to your parents and not to home education per se."

That's the point I am always trying to make - I ^didn't" have a bad experience. In most was I had a lovely time. But the message I want to get across is that the socialization thing is a huge issue and shouldn't be taken lightly. And respnses like "

"yes, we take socialisation very seriously. Every day we beat him up for his dinner money before giving him a series of painful wedgies" indicates to me that this is an area where many home educators maybe need to think a little more.

Seeker, please accept my apologies for misrepresenting you. I was vaguely remembering posts from earlier threads.

That's OK. I have posted about this before - it's a subject that I feel stroungly about. Trouble is, HE is, I feel, a "sacred' mumsnet topic - it's not "allowed" to be anything but completely, uncritically positive on the subject!

I cannot understand how you can say that, Seeker. You keep saying it. There was a great big whole thread on here recently about the downsides of HE. And I know I often add bits of crapness into my own posts because life isn't perfect, however you live it.

I must have missed that thread, Mrs W!

The thread I saw on the 'downsides of HE' actually doesn't disprove seeker's idea that HE is a 'sacred' topic. It is at the very least a topic where it is hard to talk about negatives without people getting very defensive or upset.

The parts I remember most clearly were people getting very defensive and responding to suggestions of potential downsides with things like 'no it's not', 'my family isn't like that', 'how dare you accuse us of being like that', 'now I know what you really think of me '

As evidenced by the fact that on this thread, as on similar ones in the past, any suggestion that there were less positive sides to my own education are met by assertions that these are either due to my own personality flaws or that my parents didn''t do it right!

' Private or faith or village schools etc are all going to have a relatively narrow social mix, probably mostly made up of people quite like you and your children'.

I find this a peculiar sentence-does this mean that any other school is beyond the pale and it can only be considered if it has a narrow social mix? Are people HEing because they can't afford private or they can't get a small school with 'approved' DCs? Mine went to a large junior school with a very mixed intake-there really were 'all sorts' and it is the same with the comprehensive. They are both very good schools. HE bothers me in that the parent has complete control over friendships. As seeker says, they never have to rub along with those they don't get along with or those that are not like them. This is shown by another thread where people seem to have the idea that anyone can afford private education if they make the effort! If they had come into contact with with all sorts they would know that some people just can't afford it however careful they are or however much they cut down.

Hi piscesmoon, I didn't say that it was a good thing! I just meant that the 'socialisation argument' might also be levied at parents who send their kids to those types of schools. But it's not, because it's still a fairly maInstream thing to do, that people can get their heads round.

Actually, I do, robberbutton! (level the socialization argument at parents of schools like this, I mean.) I don't approve of socially exclusive schools!

Sorry-I took it to mean that if you sent your DC to school they wouldn't have a mix.
(It is the main reason that I wouldn't send mine to a private school-too narrow.)

" HE bothers me in that the parent has complete control over friendships. As seeker says, they never have to rub along with those they don't get along with or those that are not like them."

sorry, but I disagree with that, IME anyway.

There are a few children, either at the HE clubs or after school clubs he attends that ds doesn't get along with. He has learned that he just has to get on with it and work with them as part of a group anway.

We are also having problems at the moment with one little boy who attends the same HE things as ds who is being quite rough with and rude to ds which we are having to deal with.

The only control I have over his friendships is that there are a couple of children ds is friends with that I probably would not like to invite into my home - as there would be children like that if he were in school as well.

Intact, i found that parents at school had a massive impact of friendships, especially in the younger years. I can't tell you the amount of times ds was told by other children (with me in earshot) 'my mum doesn't want me tonplay with you' which was backed up by teachers.

I'm sure you do seeker! I think lots of people's social circles are quite narrow, it's just HEers who get quizzed about it in the street.

But most children don't go to schools like that, robberbutton.

I think that people object when downsides of HEing are suggested by people with no direct experience of HE, or in such a way that there is no way of getting around those downsides.

Seeker, in your case I am hoping (and it is certainly so in my case) that the responses you mention are probably badly worded ways of saying 'so that was a downside for you, I wonder how we can work to make sure that it's not a downside for us', IYSWIM.

IOW, I agree that children who have a high need for socialising and who's parents don't, may suffer if they are HE'd, but not if the parents recognise that need in their child and finds ways to meet it. Similarly, a child could also be really damaged by being forced into social situations a lot if they are a child who has a high need to not do lots of socialising.

The key is that it all has jack-shit to do with HEing, and everything to do with whether or not parents listen to their children and that problem will apply to HEors and schooling parents alike.

I was saying to my mum today that I hoped my children didn't grow up hating me for HEing them, and then in the same breath realising that they wouldn't, because they know I listen to them and would send them to school if that's what they wanted. Which is why HEd children who choose to go to school tend to do so brilliantly, because they know that they are the one's who've made the choice and are making the most of it - they know they can leave if they want to.

I think that my reaction to your posts (reflecting now!) about downsides of HE for you personally, is to think 'well why didn't you like those bits? Why didn't your parents address them?'

I agree with MrsWobble, I really don't think that it has anything to do with the sort of education it is all to do with the sort of parent. If the parent listens and is keen to socialise their DC then there won't be a problem. However if the parent isn't sociable,or doesn't see the need for it then school is easy because they don't have to bother and doing nothing won't lead to isolation.
My SIL DCs did brilliantly when they decided to go to school. Unfortunately the DC doesn't always get the choice, you get many posts that start 'my DC loves school but I want to HE-what should I do?'
Listening to the DC seems the most important thing to me. Letting them follow their own interests and not bothering about the background or place of education of the others and making sure they can have close friendships with DC that you might not like yourself. Some DCs are naturally sociable and some need some help-wether or not they go to school.