A Home Ed am I being unreasonable - HEers, please help.

[Callisto]

DP and I discussed in depth our relative feelings about school and HE and I found to my horror that he is fundamentally opposed to HE, despite acknowledgeing that I am doing an 'excellent job' teaching DD the basics so far.

His main arguement against is that we have the opportunity of a place at a very good primary and we would be mad to pass it up. The primary is good, as far as any state run school can be good, but I don't believe DD will thrive there - quite the opposite infact. DP's 'concession' to me is to make DD go for a month and if she still hates it by the end of this time we will pull her out and HE.

I know I'm being unreasonable and that it is a solution of sorts, and that if I insist on not sending DD to school it could mean a big rift happens in my relationship with DP, but, but, but, but...

I don't really know what I'm asking for here, I'm very down about it all and tired as I didn't really sleep last night so probably not thinking as clearly as I might. Maybe some help so that I can put together a counter-arguement? Thanks all.

PS If you think I'm barking and should just pack DD off to school please could you keep such thoughts to yourself? I know it's an open forum etc, etc, but I'm feeling a bit raw and could do without anyone else telling me I'm wrong.

Isn't the best way to put your case to your dp to argue for HE rather than against school?

If you believe that HE is the best way to educate your child then spell out exactly why this is so, and all the benefits there will be for her, what she will do, how she will learn, what groups you will attend, what a ball will be had.

That's sound reasoning then isn't it? And hopefully will give him the confidence to second your decision because he will understand it better.

You do need to be sure about this yourself though! The argument which says, 'she's too shy and clingy, I was like that, and I hated school and wasn't popular and it knocked my confidence' isn't convincing because it opens itself up really quickly to 'well it's not you going to school, she might have a ball, and learn confidence, make friends, enjoy her school life.'

Which may well happen of course

Would it help him to talk to a group of dad's about it?

There is a Yahoo group set up for dads. There are at least a few (my ex is one of them) men on there who were VERY against home ed but have come round to the idea and are now quite positive about it. Might that help more than him hearing from people who are drawn towards it in the first place?

To be fair to my ex, I really didn't give him that much choice. But then the way I see it is that by home educating I'm continuing with what is already working well for us. Introducing school would have been the change and so if he wanted to make that change, he had to convincingly put across the benefits of it for DD. Given that his best arguments were everyone does it and I'm fed up of your crazy hippy tendancies, I remained unconvinced.

There is a Yahoo group set up for dads.

Mow that sounds like a good idea!
Do you have a link for that anastasia?

Copied from email, which was ok to forward so am assuming is ok to post here:

One of our Regional Contacts: Fiona who covers parts of Liverpool has come across a few home educating couples starting to fall out over 'home education'. A few of the dads feel school is the 'right' and 'normal' thing for their children and then feel pushed into a decision, dis-empowered and isolated.

Fiona thought it would be a good idea to start a 'Dads Only' group which we set up yesterday evening.

If your man is one of the men feeling isolated or pushed into a decision would you please inform him of this group, also if your
partner is one who fully supports it, could you ask him if he has the time or willingness to join and chat with other fathers?

The link is here: groups.yahoo.com/group/ThenUk-Dads/

Thanks for reading, its open to ANY home educating fathers anywhere

Please pass this information on to anywhere you see would be useful.

Julie & Fiona

Yes, I agree totally that arguing from the 'school is bad' veiwpoint is very negative. I have been pointing out the positives of HE and that there are very active groups local to us, that we would in no way be isolated etc etc. Unfortunately it always seems to come down to the fact that the school is over-subscribed and we would be barmy to pass up the opportunity to send DD there. Of course I don't see it as an opportunity so much as a possible option, but DP thinks that we are amazingly lucky to have been offered this place.

The dads group sounds like a great idea - is it up and running?

My dd got a place at a very good primary but I have decieded to reject the place and we are heding. My dh was very opposed to it. I had done lots and reading and research and knew I wanted to Dh husband wasn't so sure, as I can not get him to read a book! I got him to go on the internet and resarch it on there which he did. Will had this xmas picture of dd at preschool looking so lost and unhappy which always chokes him, he knew in his heart that school wasn't right for her at the moment. We have decieded a compromise together that we will hed this year and review the situation, nothing needs to be set in stone. I just think that if I home ed for a year and she wants to go to school after she hasn't lost out on much, however if I send her to school and she hates it then thats her 1st experience of education and that will last, most people can remember their 1st day at school!

I turned down a place for DS in October (we'd been on a waiting list for local primary school reception class). Very good school and everyone thought I was mad, it was a difficult decision. DP wanted DS to go to school, because it was the normal thing to do and HE is weird. It was difficult because he wouldn't read anything, or look on internet. He sort of accepted the arguments that DS would learn with me and probably could do alright socially, although he still had reservations about both of these. We're 8 months on from when he 'should' have started school. DP has taken DS to a couple of HE groups (when I've had appointments). He can see he has lots of HE friends and is happy and learning. He can also see that we're more relaxed and happier than when DS was at nursery every day. It helped that he read in The Times that HE'ding was even posher than sending your child to private school. Given the choice, I'm not sure that he'd say he would go with HE in the long term, but he's certainly not worried about HE at the moment.
The thing is, it's probably going to be you taking DD to school every day and dealing with most of the school stuff and if you don't really believe it's the best thing for her, then it's going to be really difficult. I would second trying to persuade DH that giving HE a try is the way forward, on the understanding she can go to school if it doesn't work. It is hard when you're dealing with a sought after primary school, but there will be a place at some acceptable school at some time if you really need it.
We've just had such a nice time these last few months, I would really recommend hanging on in there and trying to get an agreement to a trial basis. It is a horrible position to be in though, because making the decision to be different and HE from the start isn't easy, even with your partner's support.

I would go with his compromise of a month at school. It is a very short time and she will only be learning through play. If she isn't happy you can withdraw her and you have tried his way.I was an extremely shy child who hadn't been anywhere on my own before I was 5 yrs and I blossomed in a way that I wouldn't at home. You are only talking about doing 20 days.It would be much worse if he was insisting on school, or doing a term. He is an equal parent.

Just to add my pennyworth. Why should you, as her parent, go against what you truly feel is currently best for your child?
It is hard when the DP isnt convinced but who'd be doing the actual HE'ing?
I know it isnt the norm but when my eldest tried school again her teacher lied to us about her work and behaviour. I was concerned about her but said teacher kept saying it was fine, she was doing well and all, yet she was not doing well at all. So go with your gut. If you do let him send her for the 4 weeks then make sure you keep tabs, don't just accept what people tell you unless you see it with your own eyes.

Thank you so much everyone for all of the responses and opinions about this. And thank you for being so gentle with me.

I emailed DP yesterday and told him that having experienced DD's extreme distress when I took her for some jabs a few months ago, there is no way I would be able to force her into uniform and into school for days at a time and that he would struggle with it too. I've also asked him to talk to DD about school and find out why she is so worried about going and we have an appointment (a kind of reception class open day) with the school in June that I will (reluctantly) go to with DD. I think I will see how DD responds from this.

We didn't talk about it at all last night - I think we both needed the night off so we could be friends again, which was a relief as I can't remember the last time we had a proper disagreement about anything. But this a.m. DP said that 'whatever we decide' we would go to see the school first. So that was marginally more promising - though it could have been a bit of diplomacy. I did say that I would continue to try and convince him!

I do agree about keeping tabs if she does go - I've read a lot about how children survive adverse situations by keeping adults happy and tell parents what they think the parents want to hear. And due to my personal bad experiences at school, I'm naturally sceptical about the worth of teachers so would believe DD first anyway. (Apologies to any teachers reading this, I know you're not all bad and some of you can be very inspiring).

Nappyelite, surely exactly the same thing can be said by Callistos dp? If he, as her parent, truly feels school is best for their child.

The fact that HE is not the norm does not mean it is more important or the better choice or anything else. It is not the LEA or Health Visitor saying they think it may be the wrong choice it is the childs father.

On that note, Canute,
When I suggested to the Dads of my two (who had been against HE) that they should take over the role of getting dc to school every day and picking up, preparing packed lunches, liase with teachers and generally being the one to "sort dcs' schooling out, they both declined the offer!! What a surprise

I really feel very strongly that forcing a shy child into a situation where they feel frightened and insecure before they are ready to cope with it can only be counter-productive. A strong, secure foundation where the child can learn to truly trust her parents is far more important and helpful. I really, really hate it when people say that children need to be forced to detach from their parents or they'll never grow up - what a load of bollocks! School is a very new invention, in the grand scheme of things, and humans managed not to stay clingy their entire lives without it.

I think that asking your DP to not think about the 'school place' issue and ask him what else he is bothered about wrt HE. Maybe write a list, and then work through it together deciding whether it's a real problem, or a percieved one that can be sorted out.

I know Flamingo, it makes me really sad that the general consensus in this country is that little children of 4 need to learn how to cope on their own as early as possible. In fact I was reading an NHS thing about school refusal (which, according to the info on the site should be treated by forcing the child to go to school ) and it said that one of the causes was 'excessive emotional attachment' to a parent or parents as if this is a bad thing. How do they judge what is excessive and what isn't? Very strange and rather scary that some doctor could potentially prescribe a drug to a child because the child would prefer to stay at home.

I think it is a good idea to talk through all of the issues surrounding HE that he might be worried about and I aim to do just that over the next few weeks.

Hi Callisto, I think you've been given loads of good advice so don't have much more to add, just a story with a (hopefully) happy ending!

I know lots of people who HE, and when my best friend started doing it I started thinking about it seriously. Unfortunately DH was completely against the idea, and thought all HEers were completely loony and the children would obviously turn out to be "different", to say the least. I of couse 100% disagreed with him, but luckily DS was only 2 or so at the time so no decisions had to be made.

I decided I wasn't going to nag or even mention it, but I carried on reading and researching and everytime DH asked me what I was doing I would tell him all the brilliant things about HE that I'd just found out, get him to read a newspaper article etc etc. We also got to know some HE families a bit better. DH slowly but surely came round.

Currently DS is 3 1/2 and DH was quite happy for me not to enroll him in nursery, and we haven't looked at any Primary places for him either. I am open to taking it one step at a time, so if HE ever does turn out to be the wrong thing for us then we will try school. But I'm so pleased to get the chance to give it a go!

Sorry, that was a bit long - just wanted you to know that DPs can change!

I can sympathise because it must be dreadful to have a partner who doesn't have the same views-I am lucky because DH and I were brought up in similar ways and have similar views.
However I think that you need to take him into account, he is an equal parent and his views are just as valid as yours. It will be much better for your long term relationship if you can both end up reasonably happy.
I think his compromise is very fair as it is weighted in your favour-most people would have wanted more than a month's trial. If she isn't happy then you will have him on your side when you remove her.
I do wonder if you are preparing her in the best way-DCs are influenced by their parent's views.

"I do agree about keeping tabs if she does go - I've read a lot about how children survive adverse situations by keeping adults happy and tell parents what they think the parents want to hear."

I agree with this statement absolutely and she may end up feeling disloyal if she likes school and knows that you don't. On the one occasion that I wanted to ask my DS a really important question I got someone who knows him well to slip it into conversation when I wasn't there-I felt that he would read too much from my body language if I asked it.

My DSs didn't go into school cold. They went to a weekly session where they chose a library book and had a story and rhyme session (only 20 minutes) with the reception teacher, for a long time before hand. They also made friends with other children who were due to start.
The open day is a great idea and doesn't commit you to anything.

Another compromise would be to leave it until later. Although the school may be full at 5 yrs it doesn't mean she has missed a place for ever-children leave for all sorts of reasons and there may easily be a place later on.

I was impressed by a man on radio 2 at lunchtime, talking about 4yr old going to school. He had HEed according to the natures of his DCs, so his eldest started school at 9 yrs when he felt she was ready, the second had started at 6 but his youngest was more than ready to go at 5yrs.

I can see that you have very real fears about your DD going, but I wonder whether a small part of you is worried that she may actually love it and you can't HE.

Just another thought-have either you or your DP visited the 'good' local school-preferably together?
I just wondered what the 'good' is based on? Each school is very individual and they are very, very different. I would ignore SATs and league tables completely. OFSTED is a good starting point but I wouldn't base anything on that and I wouldn't listen to much too local opinion-one person's good school is another person's bad school-people are looking for different things. The only way to really make up your mind is to see it on a normal working day and go around all the classses and ask all the questions that you want to ask of the Head. I wouldn't contemplate sending a DC to a school unless I had done that. It could be an excellent school and still not suit your DD. I would leave your DD with family or friends (it would be unsettling to show her them all) and go around several.
I would use it as a compromise point-you would have real schools to base your points of view on, and to discuss and in return you could get your DP to read some books on HE so that he would have a wider view.
At the moment you are at opposite sides, you are basing schools on your own negative opinion and your DP is basing his on a school he hasn't seen (apologies if he has)and no real knowledge of alternatives.

Sorry-I meant to say negative experience not negative opinion.

"I can see that you have very real fears about your DD going, but I wonder whether a small part of you is worried that she may actually love it and you can't HE."

You may be right, but I have never presented school in a negative light to DD, when we've talked about it I always try to say positive things about it. It is really difficult to explain as I don't want to give myself away with TMI, but suffice to say that DD has very good friends who she loves that attend the school and she still doesn't want to go. It would disappoint me if DD decided that she wanted to go to school, but I really don't think that she would say she didn't want to go to school to please me, especially as her father is very enthusiastic about it.

And thanks for taking the time to write all of the above out Pisces - it helps me to see things from the other side, and although I have questioned my own motives for wanting to HE DD in the past, it is always good to re-assess.

Many other countries in the world do not consider formal education before approx age 7, so I wouldn't worry about starting school late. Our school has places in every school year, except reception, where people have moved away, so your chances of getting into the school next year, or the year after are certainly not zero. However ... I agree that you and your DP need to reach some kind of agreement, as hearing parents argue may be worse than having to go to school.

I think that starting later would be a realistic compromise-5yrs is very young for a lot of DCs.
You DPs main fear seems to be that if you don't take the place you won't be able to have it later. Reception places at popular schools fill up fast and I expect that she would lose it, but people move house and schools for all sorts of reasons.Some areas have a more mobile population than others, but I doubt whether any school ends up with exactly the same children in Yr 6 as Reception.
I would still visit the school and see if you like it, and also ask the Head how many DCs leave and join on average in a year-it would give a realistic picture of whether she could start at 7yrs, 9yrs etc.
When you HE I would make sure that you join groups and encourage her to join local activities like Rainbows so that she meets a wide range of DCs. I would keep your negative views to yourself (which you seem to be doing)and encourage your DD to think of it as something she might try when older. When she is older your DP will have had time to evaluate the experience (he may think it is better than school)and she will be mature enough to discuss it. (I am sure that if it is a good school they might let her have a few visits when she is older before she committed to going).

Why don't you ask the school how many places they currently have available in yr1 and yr2? Hopefully there will be a few and you can illustrate to your dp that a full reception does not mean that there is no way back if you don't go now?

Kingcanute, yes the same could be said. HE is a choice, as is school. As to whether one is better or more important- they are equally as good when used properly. The point of the OP was that she felt school at this time would be detrimental.

Usually, and this may not be correct everywhere, it is easier to gain a place further into the school rather than at day one. Your idea to ask about the yr1 and yr2 places is good.

just so you know, school places are more available in year 2 and 3. By that time, children move away and kids on waiting lists are settled into their current schools and less likely to transfer. It's easier to get a place then (speaking from experience).

I think you need to follow your childs wishes at this point, and continue to do that. When they are happy, everyone is happy.

HE is great, but no, it is not for every child and parent.
You won't know this until you do it for yourself.
Same argument for school.