What do I really truly think about schools?

[emmaagain]

In response to a discussion with AbbeyA in another thread, but I can't cope with these Byzantine conversations-go-everywhere thread.

I'll try to be very succinct.

1. Schools are inherently places where people get bullied [it's a feature of closed societies which people have not chosen to enter, like prison. Where outside such societies those who don't fit in with the particular culture can choose to leave it, finding alternative people to mix with, in schools you have to stay in a room with people you dislike day in day out]. If your child is not one of the ones being bullied, you might not notice it, but look around. There is often someone being belittled, whether it is by staff or pupils. Except of course in the perfectly happy skippy schools where it never ever happens (only I'm not sure I believe in them)

1. Schools are inherently and institutionally coercive. The teacher is the authority figure, and right and proper in a room of 30 pupils not all of whom want to do what everyone else wants to do, or even be there. The alternative would be chaos. But I am ideologically opposed to my children spending their days in a dictatorship, however benevolent. (NB I am aware that most will not agree with me about it being wrong to submit children to the dictatorship of adults, at home or at school. I am a libertarian and that's an unusual stance. But I am trying to express my objections to the institution of school and this is a large part of my moral objection)

1. Schools have really weird cultures which don't reflect the world outside at all (asking permission to speak or urinate? Eating on someone else's timetable? Stopping an activity when someone else says it's time to move on rather than because you've finished?)

1. Schools, by definition, cannot enable a child to learn in the most efficient manner, as responsive to their ability and interests. Because there is a national curriculum. Because there are so many children for each adult - there's no way there could be a truly personalised curriculum. Educational professionals do their bets, I know, to respond to the needs of each child, but there's no way they're going to come close to what a parent can do, just by definition.

The OPs post in points 1-3 describes the average office environment fairly well I think! In which case school is probably reasonable preparation for adult life..

Life is less than ideal! You can't do what you want when you want-if so I would have stayed in bed this morning and read my very engrossing book! Unfortunately I had to get up and go to work. My DS had to get up at 7, organise himself for with the right books and equipment for school, get out at the right time and catch a bus. All good practise for life. My other DS has an apprenticeship and has to get himself up at 5.45 every morning except college day-this would be a total shock if he had run to his own timetable for years. Incidentally for those who say GCSE's are not worth bothering with (I think Noddy came into it somewhere-the thread is too long to look back)they are excellent for those that are not academic and don't want to go as far as A'level. I am extremely proud of my DS who has struggled through school but has 8 GCSE's, all C's and B's including English and Maths. He got this through the efforts of the school and his own hard work.
I wish that I could get through life without interruptions. You constantly have to stop things when you don't want to.

'I'm not a libertarian so I think that children benefit from being in an environment where their individual and immediate needs are not necessarily the first priority but have to be moderated by the needs of a small, benign society.'

This was said by ISSY and I agree totally.They have to get used to not being first in everything-or you will have a very selfish person who cannot get on with others.

I had to read this in one long session so I am replying to several.

FlightAttendant-I couldn't believe yours! Your DS likes school but you hate it!!!I loved school, if my mother had hated it then I really couldn't have cared less!!

Juuule wants access to the teacher without the school system!! The mind boggles-how does a teacher operate without children? You get enough children to make it economically viable and you have a school!

You have want to go to the toilet and the teacher says wait until xxx. The teacher may be in the middle of explaining something-someone else may have already gone.Unless I am in my own home I can't just go to the toilet when I want. Reception/Yr 1 children would be allowed to but after that you should develop some control.

Shrinking Violet-I am impressed with MartianBishops replies here-she hasn't said anything that I disagree with, but she isn't exceptional-there are thousands around the country! Surprisingly enough Teachers go into it because it is a vocation and they like children!(They would have to be committed to cope with the heavy workload-most jobs you finish when you leave work you don't have to work every evening and at least one day at weekends).

Bullying is everywhere-of course children don't have to put up with it! OK some schools may not be dealing with it (there are bad schools)but they have policies,peer mediators, mentors etc.Good schools will take it very very seriously.Ask to see the policy before you send them and hold them to it. If I have any problems with school I telephone and sort it. They are always very helpful-if you are polite.

I wasn't aware that parents assumed that children had to go to school.They choose it.

I really think some of the anti school brigade ought to visit some good schools before they make outlandish generalisations. A school near me, Primary, has no uniform, personalised lessons, breaks when the teacher wants them. The whole class attend the imput lessons and have a plan of work that needs to be done by the end of the week. They do it when they want to so they don't have to stop Maths to do Science if they are engrossed. An Infant school has superb grounds (always written about nationally), they do lots of exciting things-e.g for the Great Fire of London they make models and then set fire to it on the school field!
Schools have authors or working artists in to hold workshops and they spend the whole day being creative.Theatre groups go in and involve the children in a production. My DS's Primary School had allotments in year 6 and they grew veg (free choice of produce)long before Jamie Oliver. They had a week in a residential centre/farm and went out each day but were responsible for feeding hens etc before they went. My DSs Comprehensive has a part share with 2 other schools in an outdoor centre in a completely different area to home (we are very suburban) and they go potholing, canoeing etc. Good schools manage to do government requirements in terms of curriculum without it being narrow. Another school has a morning a week where they do extra curricular studies and the children choose the thing that interests them so each class has children from 5-11yrs working together, helping each other, at their own level. Year 6 children go into year 1 and do DT project in mixed groups-both ages love it. I am sorry to be so long but I think some of you have no idea what goes on in schools! I expect I could quote more but I can only go on those I know. These are all State Schools. There are bad schools and I have exploited the system, in that we moved to our present house because of the schools.All the Comprehensives are good (they don't do too well in league tables as they are truly comprehensive)but there are no sniffer dogs,metal detectors etc!
I have been so long writing this that I expect that lots more people have posted in the meantime.

I wasn't aware that parents assumed that children had to go to school.They choose it.

---------

Oh honestly, AbbeyA, that's really not been the case with the vast majority of parents I have met. One of the first questions I am asked when they find out I HE is 'Is that legal?'

If they assume it's illegal not to use schools, of course they haven't considered other options.

Well around here parents realise they can HE. The law states quite clearly that they don't have to be educated in schools.I have never heard anyone say 'Is that legal'-they always say 'what about socialisation?'. I will admit that children think they have to go to school-they are always amazed when I say that they don't and they smile -but then I tell them they have to be educated and their parents would have to do it -and their face drops again! I think in most cases they think school is the better option!

Surr3ymummy I have to take exception to your comment. Even if you mean it light heartedly or flippantly, bullying, as mentioned in point one of the op, cannot and must not ever be regarded as 'reasonable preparation for adult life.' I feel so strongly that we must all be very careful that we do not adopt an attitude that gives any space for bullying to be deemed ok. Bullying is incredibly serious and damaging. It is not character buiilding, or helpful in any way. I really do not think the argument that it will help us to face bullies as adults is a valid one. My ds was severely bullied age 4. I wont describe here some of the awful times he faced while in school, or the after effects it has had on his little life. Seeing the confidence beaten out of your 4 year old is terrible. There are no exceptions. bullying is wrong. If we ever foster the attitude that bullying serves a useful purpose in my opinion we are condoning the suffering of children

Bullying is incredibly serious and damaging. It is not character buiilding, or helpful in any way.

Agree totally. Unfortunately it happens-if a school tells you that it doesn't have any then they are lying. It is how they deal with it that is important-a good school will not tolerate it in any shape or form and the children know that it will not be tolerated. You have to have a place where they feel safe. Sometimes it is not easy to see, physical is easy to pick up on but some can be very subtle and devious. I would ask to see policies and question the Head on the subject. If they say 'we have no bullying'avoid the school. Some characters are strong and will always try and assert their authority. I feel intimidated on here when people get personal. I apologise now if anyone finds that about my posts-I feel very strongly on this subject but don't intend a personal attack or to upset anyone.

emmaagain-
I've only managed to read part of this thread but I think you're painting a distorted picture. The so-called negative points of school (apart from the bullying) are what my son thrives on. He did ok in reception but in truth it was a bit wishy washy for him. Now, in year 1 he loves the structure, the fact that he's told what to do, when to do it. He knows where he is and feels completely in his comfort zone.
I think the school environment does reflect society in some ways - I realise that a lot of what you are saying is about the compulsion involved with school, but the majority of children are unable to make that sort of crucial decision for themselves.
Personally, I find the whole home ed thing a bit hard to get my head around (maybe that's because my local schools are so good), but I have every respect for parents who choose to follow that course with their children.
The tone of your messages suggests that you do not have the same amount of respect for those of us who have chosen the conventional route.

If your children are HomeEd- do they participate in any activities such as Rugby, football, dance etc during their free time? and if so how do they cope with this?

from our home i can give you a big fat YES we continually have a house full of children we go to football,youth club and anything else we can find on offer, middle son when homeschooled needed the company of peers as much as he needed his literacy and numeracy....youngest son wasnt particularly sociable but as he matures we see hes becoming a child who prefers a few close friends as opposed to the group friendship thing -im confident that my children experience a well rounded social life ....i dont think you meant it like this but for some reason the myth behind he is that we stay at home in our tie died skirts wafting joss sticks and spouting verb noun and adjective leaving our children encapsulated in an isolated bubble-ive actually been told (by a teacher)that i dont LOOK like a home schooler lol .......

I thrived school - I wasn't bullied, I wasn't popular, I was pretty much left alone. I had times when I hated it, in the same way I have times when I hae working/being a mum/being a wife and everything else. You can't be happy all the time.

I have nothing against HE. I have seem some very good friends do it, and I would do it if I felt that my children would be better off.

As it stands, DD loves school and would quite happily live there, and I can see DS being the same.

DD loves it precisely because it is so structured and there are clear rules etc.

I really don't mean to sound completely antischool.

There are good schools in which lots of children are happy. I've said that lots and lots of times in this thread.

If your child is one of those happy children, and it suits both them and you for them to be in school, then you are absolutely doing your best by them. Of course I don't want everyone to start HEing. We'd suddenly find the museums and zoos crowded on weekdays and be complaining like fury

I was putting an abstract and theoretical case for why the institution of school might be a not universally good thing, that there might be inevitable characteristics of the school environment that will lead to some children having a horrid time there, even in the best school with the most dedicated martianbishop clone teachers. I think there's one post on the last page responding to the case, but I can't look at it without losing this post, I don't think... (I'll have another go in a minute)

Bottom line of all this: I don't buy this "life is hard" "we have to be prepared for suffering by suffering" malarky. We should be actively pursuing happiness right now, and helping our children do the same. Sticking with school because you have to learn to stand up to bullies by seeing them every day, because you have to learn that sometimes you have to do things you don't want to, because you have to learn to do as you are told by arbitrary authority figures... well, it's not my bag, baby, as Austin Powers says.

"we stay at home in our tie died skirts wafting joss sticks and spouting verb noun and adjective leaving our children encapsulated in an isolated bubble" A myth dippydeedo? Oops. (immediately throws away tie dyed skirt, joss sticks and grammar workbook )

AbbeyA, my point was that there are parents who just send their children to school automatically because that's just what you do. This is a fact, whether or not you know any, and I doubt that every parent of your acquaintance considered that there were other options.

But even if that were the case, I know many parents who didn't, so my point stands. Of all the statements to argue with on-thread, 'parents don't always know school isn't compulsory' is hardly the most obvious.

And while it's great to have this debate, it is perhaps worth remembering in your outrage at the position I'm taking that this thread is in the HE section.

That is, surely, where you would expect to find mums who... well... think that school isn't any great shakes, what with having opted out of it for now or forever.

There's such an implication that we have to apologise for our beliefs.

"Well, of course most schools are marvellous happy places for all the children in them, and of course your children are marvellously happy in their marvellous schools which are educating them in exactly the right way, but it just didn't work out that way for us"

Might be worth thinking for a moment about what the response would be in a thread in the primary section if 20 women jumped on the thread and spent every post telling the OP that they are completely wrong to send their children to school, that they are doing them untold damage, that they are reducing their life chances, their happiness, their educational potential, that they are probably putting their own needs above those of the child. We've had all those, in various forms, in the last 24 hours aimed at the HEers.

And what did I say? That the reasons many of the children who are unhappy at school are unhappy might be to do with the system of compulsory schooling, which affects some children in adverse ways by its very nature, and that they might be better off out of it. Was this such a dreadful thing to claim?

Hi yurt Thank you so much for responding

"1) bullying is endemic and that's suboptimal

I don't agree that it is endemic. "

OK. I think you're wrong. Impasse. Unless we have some data about the prevalence of bullying in schools, either reported at the time or reported in later life, we can't resolve this one. Anecdotally though, have you really come across schools where no-one was ever bullied by other children or victimised by teachers?

"2) in school you learn on someone else's timetable and someone else's agenda, and that's suboptimal

I don't agree that learning to someone else's timetable & agenda is suboptimal. I think that learning that the world doesn't revolve around you is actually a necessary lesson to lead a happy life."

I agree that learning the world doesn't revolve around you is part of leading a happy life. You learn it the first time you want to stay at toddler group after all the toys have been packed away. There's no need to go to school to learn that piece of knowledge.

If I am very keen to learn about the Tudors, but this term we are "doing" ancient greece, then my interests are not being served as well as they might.

As for the timetable - I am a big fan of Virginia Woolfe's "A Room of One's Own". The possbility of solitude and lack of interruption is a wondrous thing (lack of it among women was, she argued, why there had been no female Beethovens or female Dickenses until the beginning of emancipation with the suffragette movement. I guess I'd identify myself as an early adopter of the children's emancipation movement, which will seem as ridiculous now to most as the emancipation of slaves did in the 18th century, or the emancipation of women in the 20th)

"3) the culture of school is not like the culture one encounters in wider society and that's suboptimal

It's quite like a lot of businesses."

Ah. I don't have a lot of experience of the big business environment. I guess if my children want to go into that sort of office set-up, they'll find a way to acclimatise themselves. I wouldn't advocate being in that environment for 11 years just in case you want to work in that sort of office. There'd have to be better reasons than that. (logical equivalent of going for lots of walks with rocks in your rucksack just in case you later decide to go to Everest, although at the moment you have no interest in mountaineering, it's just in case)

"In what way is it not like the culture outside?"

the teacher-pupil relationship
the curriculum
the set times for working and playing and eating
biggest of all: lack of freedom of association

"This whole only mixing with one age group? That doesn't happen at either ds1's or ds2 and ds3's schools. They have lots of mixing across age groups." I know, those things have got much better in recent years (though people seem to complain enough when their children are in a multi-year primary class).

Might be worth thinking for a moment about what the response would be in a thread in the primary section if 20 women jumped on the thread and spent every post telling the OP that they are completely wrong to send their children to school, that they are doing them untold damage, that they are reducing their life chances, their happiness, their educational potential, that they are probably putting their own needs above those of the child. We've had all those, in various forms, in the last 24 hours aimed at the HEers.

I strayed into the HE thread by accident(I would never have thought of looking at it). I merely told a poster who was curious about HE,but not thinking of doing it,but wondered if you could have a job that IMO you couldn't, because it was a lifestyle and all hell let loose!!
I keep saying I have nothing against HE but I do object to the prevailing view that I am damaging my children by sending them to school.(based on John Holt who observed how children learn, or fail to learn in a USA classroom in 1958 ).The quote given was that Education was damaging to ALL children (John Holt never met me and I object to being classified)!

Sorry not immediately obvious the top of my post was a quote from emmaagain.

1. I suspect you'd be hard pushed to find a school where there's absolutely no bullying. That doesn't make it endemic. I think you'd be hard pushed to find any group of people where there was absolutely no bullying at all.

2. Sometimes learning what someone else wants you to learn can be fantastic. I recently returned to education because I want to work in autism. I did a fixed course (not on autism) where I was 'forced' to study a module I would never have chosen. When I studied it - it was like an enlightening - I am now working in that area (and autism).

3. I think all the things you list as being not like the outside word ARE like the outside world. I have very flexible work. I still have to work broadly to others timetables. I don't have problems with people eating lunch at lunchtime tbh- don't see that that is so weird. And lack of freedom of association. Really that's just not been the experience of school that my children are having. I've written elsewhere that ds2 is inviting a 10 and an 11 year old to his 6th birthday party- these are school friendships - nothing to do with me.

I think your view of school is very odd, and not like the reality my children encounter. I like both schools we use, but I don't think our experience is that unusual.

1. In fact had a very interesting conversation with someone who felt she was being bullied at a HE group. That doesn;t make bullying endemic to HE groups.

I can't understand why the rules are 'weird', every school rule has a reason that can easily explained. Walk on the left might appear stupid but it avoids blocking the corridor. Uniforms are great -avoids having to keep up with the current trend,that would be the unofficial uniform and alway expensive if left to the children.
Rules like keep quiet while someone else is talking are only polite.

Oh shit! Another thing to feel bad about. Thanks .

ilove8pm - sorry - yes my comment was a bit flippant. I do agree with you that there is never an excuse for bullying, and would certainly not advocate going through it as preparation. Nonetheless it is prevalent in the workplace, and I suppose my point is that at some point in life you will come across it.

The children who want to go to school should be in school.

Controlling HE parents are bad. Any controlling parents are bad, but the child of a controlling HE parent would have less possibilities of escape. Those children are probably much happier in school than at home.

Yes, enthusiastic teachers. They are a wonderful thing. You don't have to go to school to get contact with them, though. THere are enthusiastic teachers at FE colleges, at universities, at the OU, in private tuition, ex-teachers because they couldn't hack the paperwork who are making a living in another way but delighted to converse with an HEed child...

I suppose the argument is that HEed children might not ever come across this wonderful enthusiasm-potential subject or topic. Yes, that's true, as long as our children are hermetically sealed away goes off to check the straitjackets. No. It's a good argument. HE parents have a responsibility to make sure their children have opportunities to try all these things out, if they want to. "Oh, we just couldn't manage physics" would be a rubbish argument and they would be failing in their responsibility to educate if they didn't give their children the opportunities to get enthusiastic with knowledgeable and enthusiastic people.

Ah, glad to see this interesting thread still running.

In my copious free time today I have been mulling over aspects of this thread.

On balance I don't think that the NC is the work of evil it is supposed to be by some posters, with a few caveats. I would like a little more time to make the kids more reflective learners. i would like less testing; I would like to take the spiral curriculum out at ks3.

The actual KS3 curriculum in science is quite interesting, and answers lots of the natural questions that children ask about the world, all the 'Why is grass green, why is the sky blue, why don't people fall off the world in australia' sort of questions.

All these and many many more are answered.

In addition we are giving children a grounding in general science at an age where they might not be sure what they want to do in later life. The GCSE curriculum (sp? plural??) are not so good. The a level curriculum is an excellent grounding in basic biology. You will need it to carry out further study at university, you can't be too selective at this stage. There is a background level of information that yo just need.

And yes you can do all of this via an access course, but again you are tied to a set body of work, at set times, in a large class (often larger with less aid than a sixth form class) so personally i really don't see the advantage over and above people being able to go 'Yah Boo Sucks, I didn't need to go to school'. Which is fine if it floats your boat, but it doesn't get you a better education per se.

Re me being a good teacher, well, people are very kind. I do like to think of myself as being a good, conscientious teacher. The kids I teach enjoy my lessons and learn. But the reality is, I'm not the best teacher in my school, or even my department. Or for that matterm, my family, my db is better than I am, and was put forward for teacher of the year!

People who are anti school are often projecting their own negative experience of school. Trust me, they have changed since we were there! And FWIW I was badly bullied in school, so I do understand the pain.

But making crass generalisations is seldom helpful. Be they towards HE or schools.

I've taught people (adult learners) doing A level Biology out of school (they needed to access a school/college to do the practical part). It was quite difficult for them tbh- this is feedback from them, not my opinion. Especially satisfying the practical component. This was in the lat 90's- things may have changed since then.

motherhurdicure, first rule of mn, stick to the thread. grievance with someone on one thread do not move to another thread.