What do I really truly think about schools?

[emmaagain]

In response to a discussion with AbbeyA in another thread, but I can't cope with these Byzantine conversations-go-everywhere thread.

I'll try to be very succinct.

1. Schools are inherently places where people get bullied [it's a feature of closed societies which people have not chosen to enter, like prison. Where outside such societies those who don't fit in with the particular culture can choose to leave it, finding alternative people to mix with, in schools you have to stay in a room with people you dislike day in day out]. If your child is not one of the ones being bullied, you might not notice it, but look around. There is often someone being belittled, whether it is by staff or pupils. Except of course in the perfectly happy skippy schools where it never ever happens (only I'm not sure I believe in them)

1. Schools are inherently and institutionally coercive. The teacher is the authority figure, and right and proper in a room of 30 pupils not all of whom want to do what everyone else wants to do, or even be there. The alternative would be chaos. But I am ideologically opposed to my children spending their days in a dictatorship, however benevolent. (NB I am aware that most will not agree with me about it being wrong to submit children to the dictatorship of adults, at home or at school. I am a libertarian and that's an unusual stance. But I am trying to express my objections to the institution of school and this is a large part of my moral objection)

1. Schools have really weird cultures which don't reflect the world outside at all (asking permission to speak or urinate? Eating on someone else's timetable? Stopping an activity when someone else says it's time to move on rather than because you've finished?)

1. Schools, by definition, cannot enable a child to learn in the most efficient manner, as responsive to their ability and interests. Because there is a national curriculum. Because there are so many children for each adult - there's no way there could be a truly personalised curriculum. Educational professionals do their bets, I know, to respond to the needs of each child, but there's no way they're going to come close to what a parent can do, just by definition.

What Issy said!! Word for word!

It should also be noted (and if it has been elsewhere in thread, which I have read, then sorry) that children whose parents have such a dim, biased view of school are not going to be immune to it. This will inevitably have an effect how they perceive any future experience of school themselves.

if we could only clone Martianbishop and put her into every classroom in the country.....

Hi yurt

"Of course you should alter something for an unhappy child- but that doesn't make schools 'inherently' places of bullying, institutional coercian, or weird culture."

Aren't they? Tell me how. If schools aren't places where bullying is a recurrent problem, then why do they all have anti-bullying codes of practice?

Are the kinds of social interaction found in schools, the kind of power structures, the way that a whole class (including the teacher) has to mould their interests to the demands of a National Curriculum found elsewhere in society?

"Personally I don't see the problem of doing something on someone else's timetable."

Do you not mind being interrupted mid-post? And then you get back and have completely forgotten the point you wanted to make. It's potentially like that for a child in school every time they get engrossed in something - then there is an interruption and a change of activity.

"I think children need to ask to go to the toilet so the teacher know where they are " and that would be ok if the teacher always said "yes! Of course!" - it would merely be a polite leave taking. Every one of us must remember a teacher at some time saying "no, dear, wait until xxx" and I bet many of our children have too. Informing someone that you are now popping out to the loo is a very different thing from asking, where permission may be withheld.

On the thing about school as relief for children who are bullied at home - yes, I agree entirely. I don't think schools should all be shut down tomorrow. And yes, there are children whose home situation is such that being with their parents is much worse than being in school.

That doesn't affect the OP claims, though, does it? It doesn't stop schools being the kinds of places they are.

I know many of us were happy at school. I know many of our children are content to be in school. But I want to know whether my 4 original claims are factually wrong and, if so, on what grounds. I still haven't seen an argument against

1. bullying is endemic and that's suboptimal

2. in school you learn on someone else's timetable and someone else's agenda, and that's suboptimal

3. the culture of school is not like the culture one encounters in wider society and that's suboptimal

Perhaps we can leave aside the inevitable coercion bit, because I'm aware that my objection to that is grounded in my libertarianism and lots of people wouldn't accept that as a philosophical underpinning for any argument. So forget the coercion argument and tell me either why the other three claims are not true, or why they are not suboptimal, despite being true.

I am not anti-HE but the tone of comments like this:

" By emmaagain on Tue 15-Jan-08 10:16:48
The other thing that all HEers have in common is putting their child's happiness ans wellbeing above everything else.",

implying that those who don't HE don't put their child's happiness first, really sum up the "I'm better than you" attitude of some of the parents who do HE. (note: I did say some)

Hi ShinyHappy

"children whose parents have such a dim, biased view of school are not going to be immune to it. This will inevitably have an effect how they perceive any future experience of school themselves."

true. In just the same way that vegetarian parents are likely to have vegetarian small children or Christian parents are likely to have children who are immersed in christian values.

That's a feature of children being primarily part of a family, not primarily the responsibility of the State.

The nice thing is that however much a parent might be cynical about school, and instil those beliefs in their child for dear life, the child is going to be introduced to the exactly opposite beliefs on an almost daily basis by extended family, family friends, and random little old ladies at bus stops. "When do you start school?" "Oh, you'll be looking forward to school!" "Everyone LOVES school!" "What do you mean you don't go to school? But you're missing out on A, B and C!" It's much more likely that the child of HE-inclined parents will be themselves evaluating the pros and cons at a pretty young age than that the child of Christian parents will be regularly exposed to conflicting values, for example.

hi bundle

I don't mean to imply that those who don't HE don't put their children's happiness and well being first.

But I will do more than imply and say right out that a parent of a child who is having a terrible time academically or socially or both at school who doesn't remove them from that school is indeed putting something (and it'll be all sorts of different somethings for different people) ahead of the happiness and well being of their child.

emmaagain

Nothing in life is trouble-free.

My daughter is having some problems with another child at school at the moment and me and the teachers are involved in sorting it out through dialogue (especially as they're about to have an anti-bullying assembly).

It's tough on her but I know that for the last three years she's really enjoyed school and this is a blip - we'll challenge the bad behaviour instead of withdrawing from the situation.

In the same way I wouldn't resign my job every time a small problem arose, I'm trying to help my child deal with the ups and downs of life in the way that I think is best.

1. bullying is endemic and that's suboptimal

I don't agree that it is endemic.

2. in school you learn on someone else's timetable and someone else's agenda, and that's suboptimal

I don't agree that learning to someone else's timetable & agenda is suboptimal. I think that learning that the world doesn't revolve around you is actually a necessary lesson to lead a happy life.

3. the culture of school is not like the culture one encounters in wider society and that's suboptimal

It's quite like a lot of businesses. In what way is it not like the culture outside? This whole only mixing with one age group? That doesn't happen at either ds1's or ds2 and ds3's schools. They have lots of mixing across age groups.

Have not read whole thread, only OP which makes a bit of a sweeping generalisation.

Those that do HomeEd- Good luck to you, its not something that I could do, but im fortunate that both of my children love school and cope very well with all of the dilemmas school life throws at them ( although DS2 coming home in someone elses trousers each week after PE is starting to grate on me!!)

I also have to work/study and so being at home all day would never be an option ( hand on heart- not something that I would ever wish to do anyway)

If your children are HomeEd- do they participate in any activities such as Rugby, football, dance etc during their free time? and if so how do they cope with this?

lol @ emmaagain charging foward into battle like this.

But I don't really have a dog in the fight, tbh, it's not where my ideology lies to be anti-school full stop. I'm very pro-parental involvement and direction. Sometimes that's school, sometimes it's co-op, sometimes it's HE.

What I do wish is that parents wouldn't just assume that they have to educate their children through school, but that, if they do choose school, they do so out of an active, positive choice, rather than the default position.

Zen parenting! Being mindful! That's my fairly uncontroversial contribution.

And I couldn't agree more SueBaroo.

I don't think being anti every school in the land is at all helpful and it just comes across as narrow minded as those who are anti home ed.

I'm mostly with you SueBaroo. Having some children in school and some out, I couldn't not be, really, could I?

However, I do agree with a lot of Emmaagain's points.

my three (two are HEd, one is at school) all do a variety of out-of-school activities (DD2 does somethign 6 days out of 7) and none of them have any difficulties with socialising with a group of children, accepting the teacher/coach is in charge and they must do what they're told (HUGELY important in rugby in particular). The only difference HE has made is that DD2 now has more confidence with group of girls of her own age as unfortunately several of the ones in her old class at school were nasty little so-and-sos, and her self-confidence took a severe dent. Two years later, she's happily talking about starting secondary school in 2009.

Yes, to be fair, I do think those are significant issues to raise.

that was to tiredemma btw

thanks shrinking violent. I wasnt picking, was genuinely interested to know how they cope in this environment.

Agree with the bit about Rugby- DP is a rugby coach and its driven into our children ( and he tries it with me!) how important it is to listen to him!

@ suboptimal

Yes, what in the name of Satan's pants does suboptimal mean?

'Suboptimal' means less than ideal. It's very widely used by health-care professionals, and not that unusual in other contexts. Not knowing it is cause for using a dictionary rather than rolling your eyes or cussing because someone else has a varied vocabulary!

Issy - I am a writer, some of the time. I only wish it were true that dealing with interruptions wasn't part of my working life.

tiredemma said;

"If your children are HomeEd- do they participate in any activities such as Rugby, football, dance etc during their free time? and if so how do they cope with this?"

yes tiredemma my children did and do all of that and more.
In fact not long ago my youngest child was at her dance rehersals for the dance company she belongs to and said she had a bruised knee from playing rugby with the home ed crowd and the girls at dancing looked at her in horror and said "They make you play rugby?!"

So she plays rugby and footie regulary, as well as doing ballet, tap and freestyle dance. She is also a member of a choir and goes to a residential singing school with them each year.
She goes kayaking regulary, and has just completed her bronze sailing course with the YHA
We go swimming, ice skating and bowling regulary and she has also had a go at Archery, Canadian canoeing, Bell boating, Body boarding, Rock Climbing and Abseiling, Zip Wires, Assault Courses, Orienteering, Grass sledging and Bike riding in the last year too.

She seems to cope with it all very happily and her very many schooled friends and her schooled cousins are envious of her lifestyle and social life.

Get over yourself, Zaz. We're taking the piss because it's a very silly word