What do I really truly think about schools?

[emmaagain]

In response to a discussion with AbbeyA in another thread, but I can't cope with these Byzantine conversations-go-everywhere thread.

I'll try to be very succinct.

1. Schools are inherently places where people get bullied [it's a feature of closed societies which people have not chosen to enter, like prison. Where outside such societies those who don't fit in with the particular culture can choose to leave it, finding alternative people to mix with, in schools you have to stay in a room with people you dislike day in day out]. If your child is not one of the ones being bullied, you might not notice it, but look around. There is often someone being belittled, whether it is by staff or pupils. Except of course in the perfectly happy skippy schools where it never ever happens (only I'm not sure I believe in them)

1. Schools are inherently and institutionally coercive. The teacher is the authority figure, and right and proper in a room of 30 pupils not all of whom want to do what everyone else wants to do, or even be there. The alternative would be chaos. But I am ideologically opposed to my children spending their days in a dictatorship, however benevolent. (NB I am aware that most will not agree with me about it being wrong to submit children to the dictatorship of adults, at home or at school. I am a libertarian and that's an unusual stance. But I am trying to express my objections to the institution of school and this is a large part of my moral objection)

1. Schools have really weird cultures which don't reflect the world outside at all (asking permission to speak or urinate? Eating on someone else's timetable? Stopping an activity when someone else says it's time to move on rather than because you've finished?)

1. Schools, by definition, cannot enable a child to learn in the most efficient manner, as responsive to their ability and interests. Because there is a national curriculum. Because there are so many children for each adult - there's no way there could be a truly personalised curriculum. Educational professionals do their bets, I know, to respond to the needs of each child, but there's no way they're going to come close to what a parent can do, just by definition.

Oh that's ridiculous, There's the potentia'l for parents to be child abusers. That possibility isn't foremost u=in my mind when I meet HEdders. I don;t think in my son's schools there's 'so much potential' for them to suffer intellecutally or emotionally- if I thought that I;d move them .

There are many many children who do very well in school, there are some that don't - of course choose the different option for the ones who are unhappy, but their experience doesn't negate everyone else's.

firstly those who have the opportunity to homeschool are very lucky, many moms have to work in order to live and home edding would be the luxury to them.

i send my dd to school, i liked school, i did well at school.

i do worry about the social aspect of he, i met my husband through my best friend from school. three of my closest friends are from school!!! if i had not gone to school i would not look half as popular as i do on facebook ;)

i think a good school is a wonderful thing and sadly bullying exists in all aspects and strata of life

And I'm used to be on the other side of the mainstream fence. I have 2 children who are totally unvaccinated for example (ds1 is fully vaccinated, ds2 and ds3 have had nothing); that doesn't mean that I think that vaccination is always a bad choice. Our decisions were made for our particular family given our experiences, our decisions aren;t going to be right for everyone else. As long as people don't criticise our carefully thought out choice (which I will defend - for our family), I'm not bothered what others do- that's up to them.

"i do worry about the social aspect of he"

You aren't alone. There must be a socialisation thread in the HE forum here where the socialisation question is hashed out again?

"sadly bullying exists in all aspects and strata of life"

Zero tolerance. If I am being bullied, I walk away. I find different friends, a different job, whatever it takes. Noone should be taught that bullying exists everywhere and that they should expect to deal with it from within the situation every time. Every child should be empowered to walk away from bullies if they cannot or do not want to engage with them. They can't do it if they have to encounter them every day, as in school.

There is NOWHERE in adult life, NOWHERE where a person is forced to continue to associate with bullies. Unless you are in prison, there is always a choice, there is always freedom of association.

"a good school is a wonderful thing" as long as a child is happy in it, yes.

yurt1 of course you don't think about the potential of intellectual or emotional suffering for your children. They are presumably happy and intellectually stretched yet supported.

But when a child isn't happy and intellectually stretched yet supported, that might well be because of the institution rather than because of the child. Isn't that a glorious message for the parent of an unhappy child at school, a parent who has been worrying about why their child doesn't fit in socially, why their child doesn't keep up, or why their child is bored and disruptive or whatever else it is? It's not a bad school it's a bad school-child fit, and the solution might be another school or no school at all.

My OP was pointing out some of the characteristics of school which might manifest in unhappy unfulfilled children. Am I mistaken? Is school a wonderful institution and the children who are unhappy in their schools are either in bad schools or are somehow wrong as people?

My children will go to school because I am so poorly educated that I can't teach them anything.

I hear you thinking ..."But any one who can raise a child can facilitate learning with one!", well I am messing up the raising of them, and I have little patience with his reading books, never mind being stuck nose to nose with them all day.

If they were suicidally unhappy at school, i would of course remove them - but I wouldn't pretend to myself that they would be getting any sort of education at home. They wouldn't. the best I would be able to do is buy educational DVD's - and I can't afford those.

hooray for schools, say I. School means that my child will get an education comparable to the rest of the country, and not be stuck with my ill-explained limited knowledge and motivational ability.

We home educate too primarily for eldest son it was due to a teacher-yes you read that right a teacher bullied him for 4 months later it transpired she had done this every year for 15 years with various childrenso whilst we took all the relevant steps to get her dismissed we home schooled this was a real success in between middle son continued to go to school for most of the time until towards the end when it just became impossible to have him anywhere near a teacher we had misgivings about(that done she was offered early retirement and took it easy way out but nonetheless she went)we moved house and eldest 2 startd local primary, eldest thrived 2 years out of school had really buily him up and he was just a regular kid in a regular school-unfortunatly the year he went up to secondary school middle son became ill -not drop dead ill im not asking for your sympathy here but too ill really to be in school all day every day he was tired and rundown constantly full of a cold in and out of hospital for tests and consultations etc etc school werent overly support absolute crap tbh.....so we took the decision to home school him around this time youngest son was due to start school so we home schooled him too-and both boys thrive middle son now in secondary school it was his desie (and ours) that he resume a social education but youngest still at home were not sure when he will go to school,now after all this the reson im telling you all this is bcos i firmly believe school CAN be a fantastic place if you are a round peg fitting into a round hole and yes children have to accept that life isnt all a fairytale and life can be boomin unfair - if education works for you thats fantastic you are lucky but people incresingly disillusioned with primary education are opting to teach at home,i cant say its all milk and honey it can be hard work financially and emotionally but our kids are only children for the shortest time and we owe it to them to look after their interests.
The problem as i see it is that schools are no longer houses of education they are businesses with league tables and poorly qualified teachers- true teaching is a gift its a calling and unfortunately its not as it were - i do get disapointed my youngest isnt a ing in the nativity and that i shall never know the joy of him rushing out of primary with a painting rosy cheeked and eager for a hug BUT i know as he sleeps at night im doing the best i/we can .....home schooling isnt a path we took lightly or opted to take really we were forced into it BUT i do think secondary school (a good one) is the best gift you can give a teenager its a time for finding out about yourself becoming a true person learning how to be with others in preparation for "real life" and the mumsbetter who said about people being brave to send their child to school when met with comments about her homeschooling i think thats FAB i love that line in fact i may steal it lol the current one matts has is that hes "too cool for school"

yes i know i made spelling mistakes lol and yes i do teach him spellings too......my hands go faster than my mind when im on a hot topic lolol please dont judge me on my typing skills lol

Bimey, Dippy. That was a stream of consciousness!

lol mavis i was on a roll-its very hard being a home schooler yet having 2 others in school lol can you tell i feel i have to justify it a lot ?

I think the OP irritated me because it views school as being inherently unnatural for children and children's learning. It has already been said, but many, many children face bullying in the home (I count myself in this group) and school is their only breathing space. I think a transparent system that kids are put into can do the world of good for a child whose confidence is being knocked by their parents. I would go so far as to say that the benefits of school for this kind of child far far outweigh the benefits of HE for a child in a normal family. So, I don't think school in itself is inherently bad. Many teachers care for the kids and would go the extra mile for the children they teach.

I understand why people HE. I know that the way of learning/homework system is not ideal for learning itself. But although learning is important, it is not the be all and end all. School was a laugh. It was fun. Laughing along with the teachers did more for my confidence anmd self esteem than knowledge acquisition. I read another poster say that if you can instill a love of nature, interest in people and places into your child then they will keep that with them and it will be hard for school to beat it out of them with their flawed

or imperfect teaching.

Emmaagain-(I am spending far too long on these boards-just as well I am off to work!)No one has ever said school was right for ALL children, it can't possibly suit all. However it isn't bad for all children. Some thrive. For me you could ditch everything else in education but keep the teacher. If I want the answer to a question I would like to ask someone who knows, not have my mother tell me that it is an interesting question and we will find out together! I would probably have lost interest by then!
The kind of authority one encounters at school is not 'weird' IMO. It is about teaching children to get on with others, respect different opinions,realising that the world does not revolve around you,being polite.(it is too early in the morning to think properly of others!)These are all things that you will need as an adult.
You are only there 30 hours a week so it is hardly a huge influence as you have 138 hours a week at home!!
I was a bit mystified as to why we would look at affordable schools-it had never crossed my mind that we wouldn't be talking about state schools.

Re HE children being tutored etc by the HE 'comminity' at this point learning, to a degree does begin to take a very similar 'shape to that in school?

They can#'t get the expertise at the exact moment that they feel an urge to studt science, they have to wait. And the expertise will be on offer for a set period of time. They will have to stop at the end of the session. They will be guided in their learning.

And the expertise will have to be shared. And will not be coming from the parent who knows the child better than anyone else etc etc.

And still this may not be delieved by someone who has trained as a teacher. The point that you are opting for this route, you are, to a degree, starting a mini school of your own. However horrid that might seem to you!

I've read about half of this extremely long thread, and as far as I can see I am very impressed by Martianbishop's arguments, in particular, but still highly opposed to school.

Ds goes part time atm because he is miserably lonely at home sometimes - and seems to like school - and it is the only place I feel he gets the amount of social stimulus he requires.

But I fecking hate it

oh this thread is making me itch now. And I'm not even anti-home-ed.

Of course you should alter something for an unhappy child- but that doesn't make schools 'inherently' places of bullying, institutional coercian, or weird culture. Personally I don't see the problem of doing something on someone else's timetable. I think children need to ask to go to the toilet so the teacher know where they are .

But it wouldn't be school in the same way that attending an adult education class isn't e.g No NC, attending because you want to be there etc.

FWIW, if my child was very unhappy I'd take them out of school. But the default setting shouldn't be 'All children will be deeply unhappy in school unless they tell me otherwise'.

We are actually trained to try and make them as happy as we can! I can remember the bits in my training! I've read the work on Nurture groups. And we are being monitored all the time.

Some children are better served by HE, many many are not.

yes bullying does happen in schools. But the most dangerous place for a child to be is in the home. You don't dotice many school positive using that as a reason not to HE, do you?

My jackboots are on and I'm off to bully kids for a few hours. I'll be late home today because, do you know, I've even managed to co-oerce some of the little buggers into staying after school ends to do some more work for their GCSE biology!

What a bitch I am

Have a nice day,MB. Seriously There are some fantastic teachers around.

Just wish we could access them without signing up for the school deal.

have a fab day set up.

Invertibrates for y7, so lots of 'Yuck' factor.

Lovely sixth form. Even lovlier upper sixth form.

Free for 'Rube Goldberg machines' building for G and T year 6 outreacg, totaly free form puzzle solving.

After school behavior studies with year 11.

terrific

the only home edder i personally know does so in order that their children are not exposed to any world view other than their parents', whose view is wierd, destructive and damaging, imo. i think that situation is tantamount to child abuse but i am bound to do nothing. (long story and NOT going into it.)

my point is, that HE is a bloody marvel for lots of people, and school is also wonderful for others. like plenty of people have pointed out tho, children from BOTH groups can be badly served by them.

its horses for courses, people. the world is a complex place.

Indigo moon, yes bullying may exist in all strata of life, but a child is not equipped to deal with it in the way that an adult is. A child is vulnerable and cannot be expected to have the confidence or skills to know what to do to remove themselves from the situation. And really, just because it exists in the adult 'world' does that make it ok that it exists in schools? It is a real and serious problem. our ds was bullied age 4. 4 year olds cannot possibly be expected to know what to do, and when I say bullied, I mean physically assaulted on several occasions by a gang of older boys within the school, without the knowledge of any teachers. Only when my son told me about it did it then come to light. In my opinion it was neglect and we fought very hard to get action from the HT to intervene. Our ds no longer has to see those boys at all, and the school redesigned the playground with walls segregating the older children from the younger ones, but now I hear another group of older boys is bullying a friends son. And lets be clear that this is in a very small, c of e school which is consistently top of league tables etc etc and in recent tables in 'the times' was the best school in the whole area. This is a wealthy, middle class school, the sort that gives houses in the area unrealistic inflated prices, the school everyone fights to get their children into, because the alternative is a school which is huge and has a reputation for bullying! Yes, i think emmagain is right that schools are the sort of environment where bullying is very likely to occur. I have read with interest the comment from teachers on here that bullying does not occur in your class, be very careful about that assumption, you may be excellent teachers with a brilliant grasp of the dynamics in the class but you cannot see everything. my sons teacher missed it, and my friends sons teacher missed it - apparantly he has been being bullied for well over a year. There are all sorts of tensions and issues going on between children which we may not see at first as adults, but they are nonetheless very obvious to the child who is suffering.

I was bullied most of my way through school, so understandably hated it, but loved a lot of the work - the 'projects' where I could get on with things, the creative stuff, the reading and discussing. On balance, I think I am glad I went (although my parents would probably have been excellent HEers).

We live in Germany and I would love HE to be an option for us, not so much becaue of school per se, but because I am deeply unhappy with the German school system. However, HE is illegal in Germany. People have gone to prison before for HEing. German schools seem so far behind UK ones in terms of pastoral care and ethos (I get the impression that UK schools have moved on massively in this field since I was there), and the system is inherently socially skewed - and my dislike of that is not lessened by the fact that we are middle-class parents likely to be on the sunny side of the system.

So when the time comes - and thank goodness I don't have to start dses unil they're 6, no doubt will teach them a bit of reading and writing before then - I will look around extremely carefully.

My experiences have made me suspicious of institutions, but ds1 has just started at kindergarten and is loving it. I think so much depends on the child and the school.

While bullying might be inherently likely to arise in a school setting, I believe a good and well-applied anti-bullying policy can make a school a safe and caring place. I certainly do not agree bullying is something a child has to get used to as part of 'life'. What a dreadful attitude