threats of prosecution absences

[raysofsunshine12]

Not sure if this is the right place to post this but looking for some advice and HE is part of it but please move if wrong place. Sorry for the long winded post.

currently dd is in school, she has had alot of time off since September due to illness (flu symptoms,possible norovirus / rotavirus, d+v, ear infection )
Since we all had the flu symptoms we seem to be catching every bug that goes around and we drop like flies (me dh and 4 dc)
She has been sent to school when she has a cough or sniffles etc but with d + v she has been kept off time + 48hrs after last episode as school policy says (School nurse also confirmed this in meeting much to ewo dislike of confirmation)
all these illneses have lead to us being run down and also lack of sleep also hasnt helped matters and she has had alot of lates due to us not waking up early enough Eg half hour after dd is meant to be in school. When havent been ill she is early for a couple of weeks then back to square 1.
attendance officer at school explained concerns and that ewo asking questions so set up meeting with ewo and explained our situation and that we are not just lazy parents we do feel her education is important , dislike her being late and what we have done / trying to do to improve situation.
Ewo wants medical evidence and copy of prescription for all future absences otherwise will be marked unauthorised Gave example of most recent absence at that time and said that as dd wasnt seen by gp until 4th day of illness the first 3 wont be authorised i explained treat at home before see gp if no improvement / gets worse we take her to gp who either says its childhood illness and builds her immune system for when adult or prescribes antibiotics when needed.said will arrange meeting with school nurse.

Had meeting at home with ewo and school nurse (turned up early at time i had stated was inconvienient) Following meeting had letter on first day of term (dd was on time) from ewo saying they increasingly concerned (no explanation why as it had been holidays) legal threats and quotes of education act.

End of this term school hand delivered letter to us whilst we were in school easter assembly from headteacher about dd attendance / lates went to see head about letter and said we have been upfront willing to cooperate and trying our best, head said its not good enough that cannot authorise absences as evidence not sufficient (evidence we were told to provide by ewo we provided) said will ask ewo why it not sufficient as head doesnt know and no support / understanding, quoted education act, our legal responsibility for dd to be in school and that we need more pressure on us?.

Im torn at what to do as dd likes school, has friends there, she loves learning also does alot of learning at home has gone up 2 reading levels since December progressing in maths Etc.

My views on education are that it is important but not restricted to a school environment but i wanted to give dd opportunity to experience school and things were going well until winter and has snowballed from there.

i feel at a loss with where to go forward from here as she has 3 younger siblings 1 who starts school in September.
Prosecution wont help anything as we are genuinely trying our best so the cycle will carry on.

will HE work with 3 younger dc? Any other advice on this will be much appreciated as dont know where to ask/vent in RL

Oh Rays sorry to hear that. You're really getting a hard time. It seems generally there is a real crackdown on absences at present. I can't advise re this part and EWO. Hopefully someone more knowledgable on this will be along soon. I do sympathise though as it has been similar for a few people I know who all got ill with flu or similar then seemed to get every bug going after. Not unusual. So handholding from me. Is it worth getting legal advice, perhaps from a charity like CAB?

In terms of home ed. Yes, it is definitely doable with the 3 younger DCs. Hard work, like everything is with that number of young children, but I know families who manage fine.

However, if you opt to HE, I'd get very good advice before starting, given the involvement already of the EWO. I've seen helpful stuff about similar cases before on HE-UK yahoo group. FionaJNicholson may be able to advise too, especially if you tell her what local authority you're in.

Regarding the school's / EWO's unreasonableness about your dd's absences, you may want to cross-post to one of the other forums for advice on that. I have seen similar posts from other parents so I'm sure there will be people who can help you get it sorted and minimise the risk of prosecution.

I'm not sure to what extent you are feeling that HE is the right way forward for your daughter regardless - sounds like you've been thinking about it for a long time? - and to what extent you are feeling pushed into a corner at this moment because of this harassment over your dd's absences. If I read it right, your dd is still enjoying school and it is you who bears the brunt of this attendance nonsense, so maybe if you can find the right approach to get the EWO off your back then it's worth you soldiering on with the school for her sake? What's her teacher like; does your dd feel supported at school when she's been ill?

HE is certainly an option for your younger children, whether or not their sister stays in school.

Thankyou for replying ive been looking for who could give some advice but i havent really found anyone except CAB but will have another look,if not will see what they say / possibly a solicitor i dont know where else.

With the HE i will see if fiona could advise and will discuss with dp how he feels about it.
the dcs already do some learning at home and we manage with the 4 with everything else the main things during schooltime is drop dc2 at nursery and do activities with dc3 and dc4, and cleaning/washing.

Saracen
I will also check out the other forums and see if anyone has any advice there about school / ewo.

I have always been open minded to HE as i didnt have the best of experiences during school but i didnt want my experience to be the main reason to HE from the start as every child is different school is suitable for some but not others.

Yes me and dp although staff on reception have made a fuss infront of dd, ewo has spoke to dd and she knows the pie chart on the attendance sheet meaning, a couple of times when late when walking through gate dd has said worried oh miss x is going to be mad because im late, i explained to dd that it is important to be on time but its not her fault she is late as she is a child, i made a point of saying to the head that whilst its not acceptable that she is late when she is the staff need to wait until dd has gone through the reception area to discuss with me as she is picking up on it and becoming anxious due to the staff reactions whilst its not the schools fault she is late it is not dds either as she is a child.

recently when picking her up her teacher said that she had been unwell and not herself at all and office had tried ringing me to collect her but no answer, i had no missed call and had been in all day, they have correct details as they have left voicemails when she has been late also have other contact details so dont know if that was a while lie from office due to her low attendance maybe thinking she was putting it on., one time i had d + v, dd was ok though so called to check if ok to send her due to viral nature of it and to let them know incase she felt ill during day, she ended up soiling herself and was very upset and embarrassed.

her teacher is ok made a big fuss to us about phonics screening as dd misses phonics when,teacher said test soon and its a pass / fail no retakes.
Said dd lovely pupil and loves learning well behaved.

So far we have been trying to bear the brunt despite it causing alot of stress due to harrasment and legal implications but headteacher unsupportive and ewo seems to think we are a soft touch with dd letting her have time off for little niggles when this is not the case and when dd has been off ill she gets a bit upset as she wants to be at school not ill and resting.
last school year dd only had a week or so off Its not like it has been like it since the start of school.
although i understand the importance of attendance and punctuality i feel they are being underhand in the way they are now dealing with it

I dont want to HE her for the wrong reasons but dont know where to draw the line with the lates as i dont want it to get to the stage of prosecution and after prosecution things will be the same because paying a fine etc isnt going to change alarm not waking us up headteacher also said to not be suprised if get a knock on door from social services as neglecting dd educational rights.

I'd also post this in primary education also for advice regarding the school and the legalities. I know times have changed since I attended a school but it sounds unduly harsh to me.

If you wanted to give HE a try, the find your local group (search under area + home education) and ask similar advice there esp as regards dealing with your LA.

Yes, perfectly manageable to HE with younger children. I know of many families who do this/

Best of luck

search on Facebook for the HE groups that is

People home ed for all sorts of reasons. In the end, if your daughter's health is incompatible with her having a positive school experience, and if your family dynamic is one where the children are accustomed to asking you questions about life, the universe and everything and you do your best to answer them or try to find out the answer, and if it's a family culture where you prioritise giving your children as many interesting experiences as possible within your budget then bam, go for it and home ed them.

There are two separate things here. Taking time off for legitimate sickness is one thing. However, because you are also late for school numerous times can you not see the overall picture you are giving. Having lots of illness does not mean you should be late for school, ever. It gives the head the picture that you do not value school and education and that you can't be bothered. If you are tired, go to bed earlier. There is no reason at all a child should be late, whether she has been ill in the past or not.
My child has had sick days but she is now in year 4 and has never been late for school, ever. The two are not related and the fact that you think they are is worrying. If she is sick, fine, keep her off, but lateness....just makes you look lazy or disorganised...which you must be if you are making her late.

I don't know anything about HE but I don't think the school are entirely wrong here. In terms of illness, there is nothing you can do about that and it sounds like you have all been having a horrible time, but the being late all the time - your in the wrong there. Set an alarm clock and get everyone up at an appropriate time. If I constantly woke up after the time I was supposed to be at work I'd be fired! It's not teaching your SD good life skills to make excuses for being late all the time.

You do seem to be making a lot of excuses. If you can't organise the school run how would you manage providing adequate HE? I think the solution is getting an alarm and a better routine.

Also if your immune systems are run down you should consider lifestyle issues. How is dad's diet? Is she getting lots of fresh air and exercise? Could a food be causing her upset tumm?

Quite honestly I think the school is taking the correct action to ensure your child is apappropriately educated.

*dd not dad

What is causing the lateness, OP? You said that you are all tired, but why is this exactly? Can't you just go to bed earlier as pirate suggests?

What exactly is your dd's current attendance percentage? Ewo get triggered if your are under a specific attendance rate.

I think you need to divide this into separate issues.

How many absences has your daughter had? Do the school have issue with those? How many are unauthorised? Perhaps talk to the school about how they'd like to manage this - collecting work from school for your daughter, for example, or being more understanding of her days off if you aren't late anymore.

Then deal with the lateness. That will only become more unacceptable as she gets older, and when your other children start school. Does anyone in your household go to work at an appropriate time, so they could wake you all up? If your current alarm clock is failing, you may need louder alarm clocks placed further away, or multiple phone alarms, or to set the TV to come on loudly. Or all of the above. If you're struggling to get out of bed when the alarms do go off, bearing in mind that it'll be difficult until you get used to it, you'll probably need to adjust bedtime. You need to get to a point where you are never late, though. It's not fair on your daughter. The school are making a point by mentioning it in front of her - they want her to know that it's unacceptable, so that she puts pressure on you to get her to school on time, too. If you can't get there on time, is there a bus she could get? Or someone she could travel with in the morning, and you do collection?

Once you've got a month of no absences, meet with the head and show that you've made progress. When you've got three months, you'll probably find the EWO backs off unless you slip up again. Your daughter will probably not be ill through the Spring, so you can probably get in nearly a year of not being late and not being absent, in which case you can meet with the head and her teacher before Winter and mention what precautions you are putting in to place to stop your daughter getting ill (probiotics, vitamins, earlier nights, etc) and possibly get a doctors note saying that your daughter has weak immune system, and then work together to find a solution that works for everyone.

They'll be a lot more helpful and understanding when they don't feel that you are completely taking the pee with the lateness issue.

If it's you the mum who can't wake in the morning, is it because you are having broken nights with smaller children? If not - if you are just grindingly tired however much sleep you're getting, and especially if you find yourself overweight however little you eat, then get your thyroid checked out.

•Firstly im not saying the school are wrong in being concerned and they have safeguarding duties as i understand the overall picture isnt good.my problem is the schools approach especially when we have been honest with them,got evidence that was asked for,made sure dd diet healthy and vitamins to try to help immune system excersize fresh air.
bought new alarms set numerous alarms,made changes to routine so we can go to bed earlier dcs are already in bed for 8pm(not always asleep then and dc3 + dc4 wake in night dc4 bf),quicker breakfasts, suggested that any work that can be sent home that needs catching up with,gone all night without sleep so she is on time as if it is 4am and im not asleep i will not be up for 7am dp has done same so that i get some sleep.
There is no recognition of improvement / effort if early 2 weeks then 1 late etc As it should be 100% any less is unacceptable. her attendance 72.4% from September to now including the absences that hace not been authorised despite evidence being provided.this is the lowest her % has been it was fluctuating between 88% and 84%.

Next idea is alarm clock between rooms as if dcs make any noise i wake easier, gp for blood test for me to see if anemic as have been before although last test after dc4 birth they tested as had pph and levels were ok.
Im not overweight if anything im the opposite so dont know about thyroid but will ask gp thoughts as need iron test anyway.

The recurrent ilnesses were first and after about 2 months the lates crept in. I wish it was due to laziness as them it would be an easy fix but no time for laziness in our house.
Once we are awake its ok but its getting awake for a time so we can get dressed and dd breakfast that is the problem

School questioned absences as she had been having alot of time off ill so they were trying to establish if it genuine illness as they said its unusual for child to be ill this often.dc2 is in nursery so brings home some lovely bugs too then its a guessing game of who catches it next but obv if dd well she still goes to school.

School nurse said could just be that she is in the catching stage as has never been recurrently ill before.gp not overly helpful when can get appointment and recieved policy letter recently for using up an emergency appointment as no bookings available.

• with the HE my thoughts were it could possibly be an option if after we have exhausted all avenues of improving lateness it persists
Dd has always been inquisitive and loves learning so this would work i think but would seek advice first.
i am open to this option as we feel education is important and dont want her education to suffer due to our lateness but at the same time dont want to HE if it is a bad time to do so with the situation with ewo.

Think i have covered all questions
thankyou for replies

MrsCs If you can't organise the school run how would you manage providing adequate HE?

Its not that i cannot organise the school run its that alarms are not waking, everything is ready the night before. Also HE wouldn't require us to be up at 7 am giving an extra 2 hours sleep and getting up at 9am which seems to be around the time wake naturally.

Also im not trying to make excuses for the lateness i know its not acceptable to be late and so does dd.

It has only been since the wave of illnesses before then it wasnt an issue so that is the only reason i can see it being linked to

So your dd has missed over a quarter of school time since September, not including all of the time missed due to lateness. No wonder the EWOs have been all over you. It's quite unusual for that much absence due to normal bugs and sniffles. I'm not sure if your saying you have a sleeping illness or your dd has but really they need to be up and out in time. If there is a genuine illness then get it diagnosed or at least be in the process of a diagnosis so that the EWOs can help support you in this. Otherwise you come across as someone who just can't get out of bed.

You absolutely can home educate if you so wish. Though the school does not have to keep the place open for you should you wish to return in the future.

Ewo became involved at 90% no support has been offered exept suggestion dd3 go to nursey, this wont change the situation atm.the head has now formally instructed ewo .
some absences havent been authorised despite me providing evidence as asked.also said expexts 100% and punctuality when go back.

yes it is not a good amount of time to have off i agree which is why she has only been kept off for things such as norovirus,ear infection until pain settled and medicine started working.i dont like the amount of time missed but what else am i meant to do send her in vomiting etc.

Asked gp if sonething underlying causing this and gp said it is normal in young schoolage when bugs are doing the rounds.
she has no allergies that we know of except hayfever.

Bearing in mind it is not only dd who has been ill this has had a knock on effect, if we are ill at the same time as dcs we dont get the rest needed to recover properly as dcs come first then something else hits us all.

The only changes/things that have happened since the term that it started is we all had flu, dc4 born, i was ill afterwards and back and forth hospital to get treated this has been resolved.

Most of the time EWOs will get involved at a predetermined cut off and it usually is around 90%.

The rest of your family being poorly isn't a reason for your dd to be absent. Doesn't matter how bad you are feeling or your other children. If you can physically move, you take them. If you can't then get somebody else to do it either your dh, family or another mum from school. Since this has been happening regularly you need to put some support in place for yourself. You have a legal requirement to make sure she gets there unless you home educate.

If I were you I'd be sending her in no matter what, short of a vomit storm. They can always send her home if she is ill and at least then you will have some back up to confirm she was indeed ill since the school sent her home.

OP have you considered that since all of this illness has come on all of a sudden that maybe your dd is faking at least some of it because she is jealous of the new baby? Obviously a sickness bug is harder to fake but maybe earache etc? She wouldn't be the first child to want to stay at home with mummy rather than go to school.

I think my post may have been confusing-if dd well and everyone else ill dd still sent to school, if there is no obvious symptoms / seems put on / just a cough / cold type thing then dd is sent to school.

Eg i had d+v still took dd as she was ok in the morning during schoolday dd soiled herself at school was upset but ok came home projectile vomited it carried on from monday to monday swept us all off feet this was after dc4 rotavirus immunisation school didnt authorise days between then and go visit

She seems to get sicky bugs alot more than the other dcs so i dont know if it is maybe something she eats that isnt agreeing with her or something else i dont know

Viral broncholitis all had same symptoms me + dp not as much one dc got v ill hospital did tests

i would totally understand if she was faking it a bit but when she is only kept off during genuine illness where rest is needed, we are fed up of the ilnesses though if one isnt bringing a bug home the other is then back to square 1.
we make sure all wash hands and keep home clean i dont know what else to do to prevent illness to prevent the exhaustion that seems to be the cause of not waking and being late.

There is no family that can help and the problem is waking not getting her there once awake get up straight away

Okay. Yes I was a bit confused. That had cleared things up. Have you met with the school nurse? Has she been able to provide any support?

The head and the EWO have to go by the numbers. If you have no paperwork eg diagnosis of an illness then they have to be very proactive. It is unusual for a child to be off school this much without an underlying cause. I think you need to go back to your GP and be very clear that you under investigation due to your dd's absences (tell him she's missed over a quarter of her schooling so far) and you would like some investigation of her immune system. If nothing else it shows the school that you are willing. Also ask about the doctor writing a letter on your behalf confirming that your dd has been ill but that there is no underlying causes especially if he is unwilling to refer on.

Have a meeting with the EWOs and school. State clearly again that your dd has been genuinely ill. Ask them what proof they need. If they say they need a doctor's note ask what happens if it falls outside of your GPs policy? Eg only 2 days when it needs to be 4 days sick or if you can't get into the see the GP. Ask for a copy of your GPs policy to take with you if necessary. If they cannot provide an answer you have cause for complaint.

What was the reason for the lateness?

Had meeting with ewo that i suggested to explain situation dds attendance was around 88% at that time,
no support offered except meeting with ewo and school nurse and suggestion that dc3 going to nursery may help.

I followed up with letter that we take dds education seriously, what we are doing to prevent illness taking vitamins etc,that we will send in evidence take in medicine prescribed to be photocopied / gps advice as ewo stated for absence to be authorised( So that it was in writing )

Dd was on time the two following weeks apart from one morning

Had meeting with ewo + school nurse
school nurse asked if dd showing any signs of anemia- no , what is diet like - dd loves fuit and veg a bit fussy with some meats but has varied and healthy diet, if dc have vitamins - yes, hygiene advice as younger dc handwashing-yes already do that. She asked if dd had chickenpox yet-no.said there had been alot of sickness bugs going around and that 48hrs off after last episode is policy to prevent spreading virus to other students.
said if any concerns to contact her.that was the last day of term

First day of new term dd on time and had been for 2 weeks except 1 morning recieved letter in post saying increased concern following meeting with ewo + school nurse as seen no improvement . (Despite no school time for it to have declined further)

The lateness is our fault as a result of exhaustion from illness, lack of sleep so not waking for alarms. eg the 2 weeks on time with 1 morning late we took in turns staying awake to ensure she in school on time this is not practical as a long term measure though.

End of this term recieved letter again and stating that ewo been formally instructed and now can legally take action ie prosecution.

Went into school and spoke to head, said the evidence we provided is insufficient and not acceptable reasons,so head will not authorise, asked why not sufficient as this is what ewo instricted us to provide, head said does not know and will speak to ewo (The goalposts had been moved without telling us)i feel head unwilling to authorise absences even where evidence has been provided, due to the lates. asked head how do we move forward from here head was unsupportive a lot of i dont knows and guilt trip about dd not recieving 100% attendance certificate.

We have all been well this half term so far touch wood so going to try best to have dd early start of term and the rest hoping that she does not get ill.

I said we understand the importance of attendance and punctuality we take it seriously + trying our best.said the pressure they are putting on us isnt helping when we already putting pressure on ourselves to improve heads response was that we need more pressure on us. (Im jot saying they are wrong for putting pressure on us but harrassment would not be acceptable from anyone else .)

Think i will have to do another action plan and forward copy to school
Eg see gp to query again if any underlying cause,
arrange another meeting with ewo and head present so everyone on same page no confusion as to what they expect from us during Any future absence.

Weve tried to be proactive in sorting the situation but i think its just going to spiral further from here on re prosecution etc

How old is DD?

I was expecting you to say thAt her attendance was in the 60's or 70's but it's actually 88% which while lower then average, isn't rock bottom.