Regretting taking kids out of school.

[apocketfulofposy]

Posting here for traffic,sorry.

I have 5 children ranging from aged 6 to 10 weeks old.

We always planned to home educate after reading a book about it when ds1 and 2 were toddlers,then when ds1 was about 4 and a half,and i was pregnant with baby number 4,i decided to give our local primary a go,partly because it was just that time where he would of been going and partly because i was finding it hard with them all at home (no family on either side for 3 hours,husband who works away monday to friday,rural ish area,i cant even drive!).

Anyway reception was ok,he liked it,made plenty of friends,dc2 and 3 went to the pre school and liked it,except dc2 had lots of issues with hitting other children and just general destructive behaviour.

When ds1 started yr1 last year he hated it from the word go,he still liked seeing his friends but he really noticed the change between mostly play to mostly lessons,plus his teacher left after a term and the new one was very strict and spoke to the children like she was some kind of prison officer.

Ds2 started reception and seemed to enjoy it but after a few weeks i was called in a few times about his hitting and destroying things,they said he just physically wasnt ready to be at schoolt hat much so put him down to half days,which was a bit of a faff for me as i was in and out all day but it was fine.It didnt seem to help though and he was behaving worse and worse at school,especially at lunchtime,but strangely his behaviour at home was getting better.

Add to this the fact i was finding it hard carting them all around everywhere and i felt crap because i kept forgetting to reply to things and i kept hearing all this micheal gove stuff,i just decided to pull them out,id been thinking about it on and off for a while and just thought do it,and id id it almost on a bit of a whim.

The first few weeks were great and we all loved the novelty of not rushing around in mornings and the kids have been playing all day,and actually one good point is that they have been getting on so much better.

But apart from that i am starting to regret taking them out,i miss the routine,i miss being able to take the babies to their groups and talking to my "mummy friends"(cringe) i miss being able to go to the shop quickly with just the double buggy,i also just dont know what to do with them,and the house is just such a mess!

I know these are'nt huge things but its starting to feel chaotic and i can feel it going back to the way it used to be,before school,and it hink i underestimated how much it did for all of us.I just dont know what to do!

Help and advice please!xxxxx

Good question..
it is as expensive as you let it be.
we only ever used tutors for music in the latter days one of the children requested lessons.
Remember how much you can spend supporting schools..and paying for school uniform and shoes- and school trips.
all of the activities we did with HE groups were at educational rates...i was shocked for instance when i realised how much other people pay to go ice skating/bowling/swimming etc.
We home educated on a very limited budget, as most do in my experience, i only know one well off HE family.
Travelling was our biggest expense, to meet with other families - but we learned to become very frugal in other areas.
Holidays in term time is very much cheaper as i think everyone knows...
And we rarely bought anything new. Almost everything was from ebay/charity shops/carboot sales/amazon new and used/freecycle.

posy as my good friend and superb HEer always says, if you're not constantly asking yourself questions and not constantly assessing whether you're doing the right things, you're being a crap parent!

Avoiding difficult questions and getting defensive is never a good place to start HE!

If I home schooled, my son would be isolated. I don't know any other home schoolers & doubt there are any many locally.

Also, how do prospective employers see home schooling?

Posy - you seem very sure of your stance - you criticise Tammer because she's not done HE - but neither have you according to your own posts. You have left your children to do their own thing. You have not done more than most of us would call normal parenting. There have been some really interesting posts from experienced HEers - some of whom do unschooling. But you've ignored everything they've said. That seems very defensive to me.

We absolutely don't know that the best schools are private!

There are good, bad and outstanding schools in state and private system (and by good, bad and outstanding, I'm not going on the ofsted definition necessarily because I think ousted have a relatively narrow focus).

I'm sure that there are good, bad and outstanding home edders too.

I don't know where you get these ideas. I would still choose state education if I could afford private. My three children have gone very successfully through the comprehensive system- they have all had their first choice of career and are doing very well- unfortunately I can't say what because I don't want to out myself.
The fact that Sandra Dodd is American immediately puts me off. I don't like 'radical' anything.
Autonomous education is hard work for the adult. I can't see any harm in what you are doing while they are so little,but their needs will change. Letting them do anything and calling it educational is not going to be in their long term interests.

I would say that I have done far more HE than pocket because there were hours and hours outside of school and we used them to do far more than she is managing!

Hi tamer, thanks for the links, but i can get them myself.
If I wanted to use the national curriculum I would do so.
You have not read the report I mentioned, why would you think it had anything to do with a 7 year old.

It says! the laboratory skills of students entering university are getting worse year on year and have been doing so for at least 10 years.
That many students only get to see experiments on utube.
That there is no clear training for teachers to show experiments.
And it goes on.

My point was, if DD has a kit she can learn the skills being lost in schools.
I have never seen the sight before today and only know of its existence because i was trying to see what practical experiments were being done in state schools. Not many.

There are good private schools and bad private schools, good state schools and bad state schools, good HEers and bad HEers- the only difference appears to be that no one will admit to bad HEers.
I also agree that a good parent is always questioning what they are doing, whether it could be better, whether they could change- constantly assessing. Even more so if you are solely responsible for their education. You don't just sit back and say 'I have it right' when you have hardly started and are just playing!

"My point was, if DD has a kit she can learn the skills being lost in schools."

No she won't- most chemistry kits for kids are no more than toys.

I will leave you in your pleasant little world, bebanjo, as you don't appear to want to leave it! I was tempted to ask which part of the primary science curriculum you want to ignore and why- but I have my doubts that you know what is in it.

The other difference is if you get a mediocre teacher it's likely to be just for one year or one subject, not your whole education.

Plenty of practical experiments at the right level on my primary teaching link which don't involve buying kits, which , as has been said, are little more than toys.

Tamer, I am happy to leave you in your little world, where you will not read a report that shows you are wrong.
I answer to the lea yearly.
So the kit is a toy, so therefore not in the least bit dangerous, that should make you happy.

Now I can safely show her how to use lab equipment and she can learn what it's all called.

I call that a win win.

The successful HEers on here are confident, organised and have aims. They say what they do, they don't keep telling me that I haven't read x,y and z and blinding me with theory and taking umbrage. They don't need to because they know they are doing the best for their child, as I did my best for mine ( it was just different). It is the insecure who get so defensive.
You started the thread posy and asked us! I can't help it if you don't like some of the answers and regret starting it. I have found it most interesting and have even changed my mind on one point.

I am getting the impression from this thread that most families who home educate have either/or a) Large families b) Children with extra needs that aren't being met at school c) Dreadful schools in their area d) Children who have been bullied at school.

Is there anyone on here who home educates just because they want to?

I thought I knew that family. They had all been withdrawn from a pretty expenside prep school, the official reason being that some of the teacheres hd been found lacking in the way they dealt with/spoke to pupils.

After a few months of knowing the family well it became apparent that their business was in dire straits and therefore they could no longer pay the fees. Putting them into the local state school was unthinkable so they ended up home educated.

They did eventually go back into different private schools when the HE became untenable/too challenging on several levels, but the business ended up collapsing completely.

Can I just say that not all schools do the kind of things that are talked about on here. In all the years that I had kids in school (and DS1 did a full 13 years, the rest had differing amounts of school ed), we never experienced any of the kind of projects mentioned, any of the school/university/lab link ups or anything else mentioned upthread. The most exciting thing to happen in out PS was Soup Day. The school had a small veg garden and once a year some of the kids harvested the veg and the dinner ladies used it to make soup for lunch.

Another thing I struggle with is the idea that HEers should be taking their kids on trips all the time. School doesn't do this, it concentrates mostly on bookwork. I have a clutch of kids with ASN who don't particularly appreciate being dragged out on endless "educational" trips. They like the odd one, but not all the time. However, I do appreciate that my kids are, for the most part, older than many of the children being talked about on this thread.

Have read all this thread with interest, I have an interest in HE and have also read and listened to a lot of what Ken Robinson has to say on creativity and education.

But I'm rather shocked by the degree of defensiveness and obstinacy exhibited by some posters. How can science teaching be so easy? It's surely not about kit or concepts explained in bite sized chunks on popular science programs that give you the answers. Rather, like mathematics taught well, about an understanding of abstractions and processes that can't be learnt through a quick google. At whatever age.

I teach at PG and UG levels (design based) as well as having science and maths qualifications through to A level. I'm not confident that I've retained the basic concepts of science well enough to be an educator in those subjects. I wouldn't assume that I could, I'm rather shocked that some people do.

Trying and failing, not seeing the relevance of something until you understand a larger, interconnected picture, surely fundamental to education? What I don't understand is the concept that children can predict and select what is, or may be, valuable to them in advance of understanding - or Discovering- what their life might or could be.

Stressed, I didn't mean all schools did that lots have the ability to but many don't bother.

I was just pointing out that loads of things schools have the ability to do if they wish so do those who HE and IME they are more frequently taken up by HErs

Stressed... If I was doing this with my DS (8) I think (but I don't know, I've not been there) I would be trying to link in interesting places with what he's interested in... but that doesn't mean its got to be big expensive trips - we went to the local (free) museum the other weekend and he saw a real mummy there - linking in rather well with his current history in school. But I suppose if we were going for natural hisotry type stuff we might be spending lots of time outside at a nearby park or similar. Or going out late to look at the stars.

But then perhaps I have a skewed idea of what's 'reasonable' given the sorts of things we do for 'recreation'...

Luce.

Many HE families do teach these subjects and the end result is children with some very good qualifications.

Part and parcel of facilitating is understanding your own limitations and seeking support or assistance if needed

Needs, yes I understand that, and appreciate it's often done well, even better, than within a school setting.

But, and it's a big but, those who can't acknowledge the complexity of what they're undertaking would appear to me to be woefully unsuited to the task.

Mistle, that's kind of what we do. We go places and do things that tie in with what they like, just not all the time.

DS4 likes nature, for instance, so we do the usual things - nature walks, growing stuff, bird spotting, star gazing....but that's in addition to any "work" that he does. Just like non-HE families. I find it quite difficult sometimes to compartmentalise what would be classed as "school work" and what is just interest/normal life. it's all a bit of a blur. DS2, for example, wants to be a zoologist or environmental biologist - he hasn't reached the specialisation point of his course yet - so he volunteered with a conservation group for a few hours a week for a couple of years before he went to uni. He did all sorts, from population monitoring to habitat building to environment management. He learnt a phenomenal amount and , according to the LA, it was part of his learning plan. DS2 just saw it as an enjoyable and worthwhile thing to do.

Stockhausen, you asked how prospective employers see home education.

I doubt they have any opinion at all. I know that when I have been involved in hiring decisions, we have never discussed anything about the candidates' school experiences. It seemed entirely irrelevant, since the work environment bears so little resemblance to school.

What interested us was whether the candidate had the experience, aptitude and personal qualities required for the job. For example, for pizza delivery staff, we wanted references indicating that the person was reliable, trustworthy and hardworking. We wanted people who were outgoing and friendly, as demonstrated in the interview. Basic arithmetic skills were also needed but were easy enough to test - few people applied for the job anyway if they didn't feel confident of giving correct change!

When I worked in software development, we wanted employees who could write good code. A CV showing relevant work or hobby experience was essential. They supplied samples of their work and talked to various technical staff to see whether they knew their stuff. References again were very important to help ensure you get somebody who is reliable and works well with others.

In an academic environment we did care about the details of the candidate's education, but we wouldn't have looked at anything prior to undergraduate level. In fact IIRC it wasn't the done thing even to mention school on a CV, since it doesn't tell you much about the person's relevant qualifications.

In general, I think home educated people may be able to present more relevant experience than those who have been to school. They have more time in which to acquire experience, and more freedom to focus on what interests them. From what I can see among my daughter's school-attending friends, it can be quite challenging to fit a part-time job or voluntary work in around school hours and homework. I'm not saying it can't be done alongside school, just that is harder. My 14yo and I met up with her 16yo friend yesterday for the first time in several months and talked about what they had been up to. Both girls have already done several jobs and voluntary work, and have plenty of plans for the future. The demonstrable skills they've acquired are bound to interest prospective employers, as are the references from employers indicating how they behave in a workplace.

I don't think that it has anything at all to do with how they were educated, it is, as Saracen says it is the experience, aptitude and personality of the applicant. It is ridiculous to say that they are better suited from HE or school- it has nothing to do with it! School children are involved in all sorts of activities, Duke of Edinburgh awards etc, volunteering, sports, part time jobs etc. Not in a 'better' way- exactly the same as some HEed ones. Some children do lots, some do nothing. Some are extroverts some are introverts. Some are great communicators some find it difficult.
I can't see why it has to be a competition- it is merely a method of education.
I think that HEed children do well because they don't have this defensiveness that their parents have. It is normal to them and they don't have to prove that it was a better experience and they must be more articulate with adults than schooled children and other such nonsense. They are individuals- how they were educated was irrelevant. The one thing that would put off employers would be a chip on their shoulder and a massively defensive position that some of their parents adopt.