Autonomous Home Based Education.

[julienoshoes]

Okay- I am not looking for a discussion over whether the choice to HE or not, is right.
I'm not looking for comments about school either, as it would be irrelevant to Autonomous HE unless a child requested to go.
I'm not even looking for comments about whether HE should be parent led, or child led.
You each make the choice that is right for you family, as far as I am concerned.

But as a result of the recent boost in members on the Mumsnet HE FaceBook page, (where any style of home educator is welcome-or those interested in becoming one) and questions asked there, I went looking for something I'd posted elsewhere.
For those of you interested in an Autonomous style of home education, I thought this might give you a little insight into 'our' AE:

Autonomous home education fascinates me-you never know where you are going to end up in any one day. I could be helping with sociology statistics, or with revising psychology theories. We could be involved in painting a Warhammer figure, doing a piece of ?Batik? or making a rag rug. We have taken long, long walks and talked and talked and talked. I have helped to write a poem on a beautiful hillside in Malvern and helped to Lucy to commit it to memory to be performed at a Street Festival. I have learned to milk a goat. We helped to take down a tee pee in the valley of the river Wye. I have helped to make electrical circuits and bath bombs. We have curled up in bed, reading stories for hours on end, on wintry days and made igloos in the snow on a snowy day. We have been fossil hunting on a beach in the sun and the rain! In short all the wonderful things other parents of schooled children, get to do for short periods between school, home work and bed, and in school holidays, we get to do all day if we want ;o)

Also on the theme of doing things they don't want to do, I think it is completely different to choose to do something you don't like for a goal you want (which adults do all the time) than to be forced to do something you don't like for someone else's goal (which children are made to do all the time). I can't see how you need practice in the second in order to be able to do the first in later life. Very few adults are forced to do things they don't want to do for no personal gain - they have the choice to leave. Children don't. By forcing something like French on a child you are most probably causing anger and resentment, because French is your goal for them, not their own.

Does anyone have experience of AE from when a child was HE'd from secondary school onwards?

Hi Collager, we have just taken ours out in feb, so its been about 4 months now for us, which, granted, isnt a lot of time, but I have noticed them progressing towards independant learning and discovering things of their own volition... At first we tried to do some structured type things, like maths workbooks and a tiny project researching about native americans. Now the native american thing was something one of my girls was interested in so... Then a bunch of stuff happened that caused me to have to just let go of the reigns and they've just sort of ran with it. My girls are 13, twins, and my son is 11. My girls were in year 8 and my son was in year 6 when we pulled them out. I was sort of forced to let go and Im only just seeing the good in it. I mentioned on the first page of this thread some of the things my kids have gotten up to recently.

I am reading this thread with interest. My first question is - How does a child who has been autonomously home educated meet the criteria required to go onto secondary education?

Sorry I meant tertiary education.

It depends on whether the young person is motivated to go on to further and higher education.

Incidentally, a lot of the posts in this thread have been about the absence of coercion and the things the parent is refraining from doing, but my personal experience of autonomous home education is that it demands a huge input from parents.

Yes huge input Fiona, but IMO much more fun input!
AE does not equal neglect. I was very involved with my children's education and lives.
It does depend on the child, but they became increasingly independent as they went through teenage years-and for mine that often meant going off on their travels with other AE families.....and then having those friends come to stay for days-and sometimes weeks on end!
I have often said our house was either full of AE teens or completely empty!
We've loved our loves though, and found it so much more stress free than when we had teens going through college.
And because it has been so much more stress free, we have had so much less teenage angst compared to our teens who went through school.

How does a child who has been autonomously home educated meet the criteria required to go onto tertiary education

As Fiona has indicated, some AE young people don't have the desire to go onto University level education, when they are ready, they use life/work/volunteering experience to get themselves jobs.
But Ds and I were talking about this, last week and all of the AE young people I know personally, I can think of only three who aren't in/have been/aiming for Uni.

AE teens are out and about in the real world every day, they know that Universities want evidence of an ability to study at the level required, so if they want to go, they have to find a way to get it.
Some will do GCSEs by distance learning courses-and do a number over several years, often starting with one or two much earlier than their schooled peers.
Others use the OU (although with funding changing, we will see if there is a change in it's use in the future) to either get into FE College/Uni or to do their whole degree.
Some go to FE college post 16 and do GCSEs then, some go in and do A levels/Nat Btec Diplomas or Access courses.
Still others will go out to work and then use an adult education courses to then use as evidence..

In our case, one did GCSEs at FE college and an Access course.
One used life experience to get her self a job with a well known national organisation, moved to another city with them and then did an Adult Education course alongside working.
The third used an OU starter course to get into FE College and then did a Nat BTEC course.

In my experience the vast majority use FE colleges to some extent and at some point, which is why IMO you don't see much info on autonomously HE youngsters going to Uni. As soon as they get to college, the college reasonably claims them as their student.

But in short the same sort of ways that schooled children do-but the choices and timings are their own.

So howdo you discipline poor behaviour? If you don't put a ban on computers or other things, what do you do? DS has been allowed on the PC for the last four days and already there is a dramatic decline in his behaviour and he is being very rude and mouthy. I know there is a consensus not to ban but if you noticed a child went mental when given a certain food then you wouldn't give it to them surely?

I need some help with this one. It's the only thing he "lives for" (his words) and when he's on it he acts like an addict! :(

Bear in mind that it never used to be rationed and he'd play for 12 hours a day all summer holiday and he'd still be rude so it's not the rationing that's causing this.

We don't discipline at all. We don't ration anything either.

We talk rationally to them, on an equal footing.
We use terms like, "when you do that, it makes me feel", or "What did I do to deserve you saying that?"

If my son had behaved like that I would have discussed with him, why I had concerns, ask him if he thought it related to the use of the PC? Ask whether there was anything he or we could do to improve the situation?

and I'd offer lots of other interesting 'get him out of the house activities that he would enjoy.

I wouldn't ration it. Then all the time a child is on the computer, there is the anxiety about whether they'll get to finish what they were doing before the time is up; anxiety about whether it's worth getting engrossed in X because X might take longer than the time allowed. I think rationing makes it harder for us to use computers wisely.

Everything Julie said, obviously.

And then, on top, as adults, we have to learn to live independently, almost certainly in houses with computers. Why wouldn't now be a good time for your child to learn to self-limit with screen time? Mightn't that be a really useful thing for him to learn?

For us, even in times of the most concentrated screen use, it's only a matter of finding the right lever to encourage the child to do something else instead - not trying to manipulate, but trying to offer something that more members of the family will enjoy collectively.

It can also be very good for you to sit next to the child on the computer, and really set aside an hour to concentrate entirely on his agenda - responding when asked to; sitting quietly when not invited to engage. It can be eye opening about the value of the screen time. It also gives the child an opportunity to share with you something they are comfortable and feel confident doing.

And give it time. I'd expect it to take weeks or even a few months for the computer to cease being the absolute focus (and, from experience, for a child on the spectrum, it can take 3-4 years - but what valuable years, with so much education coming out of it, and so much social confidence from having that safe quiet space to retreat to, and so much fodder for imaginative play away from the screen - there are reasons why, for several years, I took my family out of the house on an Exciting Expedition every single day :) )

Colleger, does your son know you think he acts like an addict about the computer and that you think it makes him rude? Because if so, then screen time has obviously been an issue for a while, whether rationed or not. My mother used to say 'you're addicted' as she passed me playing games on the computer, it irritated me no end as I knew I wasn't but I then felt defensive about my computer use. I still get angry when I think about it and I'm 35! if you think it's not a good use of his time and he knows that then could that in someway explain his behaviour? Would you be so concerned and think he was addicted if he was reading for 12 hours a day?

I'm too confuzzled to see straight let alone right but will respond later. However, what do you mean by no discipline? If your child (and I know this is so unlikely) punched you in the face, would you just say that it hurt and that be the end of it?

Genuine question - currently loosing the plot here!

Colleger, what do you mean by "discipline"?

I'm trying to think of an occasion where I would punish my son by making him do something he didn't like or prevent him from doing something he did like, because of something he had done to me or to someone else.

When he was younger, I do remember he went to a birthday party once and got very loud and shiny and ate all the cake and shoved children around. On the way home I said we would probably not do any more parties, in order to spare me further mortification. He readily agreed and wasn't bothered, because he didn't enjoy parties anyway. Then again, neither did I. So perhaps this was more about giving myself permission not to do something which I didn't enjoy, once a line had been crossed. I definitely didn't want him to promise to repent so we could go to more parties!

Hmm, on reflection, this probably isn't "discipline" at all, is it?

No it's to discipline! Lol!

So what would you do if you're 11 year old continually swore at you and you didn't think it was acceptable? Or if he hit you hard and when you explained it hurt and he then did it again, what would you do?

Hmm, well I have what I suspect may be an idiosyncratic attitude towards swearing. I swear a LOT myself, so I'm not over-bothered about my son swearing. (In fact my son minds my swearing more than I do his)

I do object to the use of certain words as insults eg homophobic or racist or sexist words, and would ask ANYONE not to use them in my presence (not that my son DOES use them I hasten to add)

What my son DOES do which drives me up the wall is what I call "you sentences" as in "the trouble with you is..." "you know what your problem is..."

When he does this, I point it out immediately and remind him that it never ends well because I flare up defensively and then it just escalates.

If he keeps it up I tell him I am Withdrawing My Good Will and I reduce my part in the conversation to the bare minimum.

I say sententiously "it could be nice or it could be like this"

In trade union terms, I guess this would be a Work To Rule. (I guess hey, THIS is punishment?!)

He usually stops pretty soon because he isn't getting the positive strokes he enjoys.

I don't know what I would do if he were physically violent. It would be a very big deal for me if I were physically scared of him (or if I were scared of him getting angry) because it would trigger all sorts of bad memories where I have suffered from violence or lived walking on eggshells in the past.

If someone hits me, I say, calmly, "no thank you - that hurts" and leave the room. I'm not punishing them, I don't think, I just don't want to interact with someone who is purposefully hurting me (and not in play - I mean, we can play rough and tumble games like pillow fights without me having a hissy fit, yk?). It doesn't take long for people to get that message.

I don't know about the swearing. Mine don't. In fact, they don't withhold affection if they aren't getting their way, either. I think that's because I model something similar the other way round - I try not to be abusive towards them, and they don't hang out with people who are verbally abusive towards them, so it isn't really in their social repertoire (now there is an advantage of not using school...).

I think it also helps to look beyond the behaviour to try to find the reason for it and to fix the reason. A child going wild all over a supermarket is horrendously embarrassing, but the best response (IME) is to try to solve the sensory overload which is clearly going on rather than try to "punish" the child for being so "naughty". As soon as I can remember to go diagnostic and rational in trying to keep everyone on the right side of the law and also behaving in a socially not-too-noticeable way, I can avoid getting caught up in the child's emotion, and any idea of "punishment" just seems ludicrous. How is it going to help if I go punitive rather than doing what I can to help my child grow into an independent and well-functioning member of society? I won't always be there to tell them how I want them to act. Much better to help them grow knowledge of good ways of acting (which make them and others feel happy!) rather than force them to act in what I consider to be an acceptable way because of their fear of my potential wrath.

Fiona you said "When he was younger, I do remember he went to a birthday party once and got very loud and shiny and ate all the cake and shoved children around."

May I ask what you did at the time? Did you do anything to prevent him behaving inappropriately, eating all the cake and shoving other children around?

Hi NonAstemia

I asked him to stop. I attempted to distract him. I physically interposed myself. We went outside to cool down for a while.

Let us just say he "didn't do groups"...

We have always talked of treating one and another with mutual respect, and respecting personal boundaries, so doing something to somebody else when they have asked you to stop, has always been something that we have discussed as not appropriate. Since they were quite young any fighting -playing or serious, would have been called to a halt, if someone said "Please stop" Or "No please don't so that" so it was difficult when they went to school and found there were people who didn't respect those boundaries.

We had loads of discussions around avoiding such situations, but only hitting back in real self defence situations (and that we would support them in those circumstances)

We have continued to live with the rules of mutual respect.
If one of my children were to hit me, I'd wonder what on earth had got them to such a state of anger or frustration that they would feel the need to hurt me. So I'd explain that the action of hitting me had really hurt, and ask what I had done or said that would cause such an action.
I'd ask if there was anything any of us could do to resolve, manage or release that anger or frustration? We'd try and resolve the conflict in a consensus way, that everyone felt was satisfactory.

I haven't experienced any of my children hitting me, but I am pretty sure if such a thing were to happen, or if they used language abusively, allowing them a place to express what ever frustration or anger they felt, without resorting to abuse of any kind,would help. We talk about it being normal to feel frustration, but we try and help the children learn coping strategies, as abusing someone else is never right.
Being taken seriously, being listened to respectfully, as an equal, does help I've found.
I've seen parents of autonomously home educated children who have Aspergers and have had a explosion of feelings (and I fully accept that not all people with Aspergers behave in this way) that they couldn't control, deal successfully in this way too.

I suppose if it continued to happen, I would deal with it, as I did with my middle child, who found the transition through teenage the most challenging, and leave the room. I guess I'm with Ommward and Fiona, I simply don't engage with behaviour such as you are describing. Once the immediate behaviour had stopped, I'd once again try and help the child identify the problem/frustration and see if it could be resolved.

I've seen children come to our local HE meetings, recently out of school and obviously previously bullied, decide that they will be the top dog in this new group-and do some thing quite violent or challenging in some other way and uncalled for.
The HE teens in the group have always been able to deal with this quietly without calling on adults, by simply saying "You don't have to behave like that here mate, it's not school, people will listen to you" and then moving on to something else, leaving the person with the option of joining in.

As a family we've always been able to use such terms as "Can we start again please" as a way back from frustrating behaviour. That could apply equally if I was being unreasonable not that I ever am of course
"I'm sorry I shouted" works well, and anyone child or adult in our family, is able to point out to me someone else "Did you know you are shouting?

So mutual respect, is the only rule in our house (apart from the one about the drinks on furniture and no drinking my real ale)

i'm finding this really interesting even though i don't even have a child yet - i hope you don't mind if i ask some questions?

i have recently chosen freelance work because i don't like the 9-5 and i prefer to work when it suits me and to be paid for my output rather than 'presenteeism' which was rife in my old workplace.

anyway, i would consider myself pretty self-motivated as i did a degree by distance learning and work freelance but still i often find myself 'wasting time' on mn or watching crap tv or reading crap fiction. i'd love to be 'better' at routine - doing my yoga and running and working and being productive (cooking, baking).. but i waste hours every day on the internet and with tv.

are all you Autonomous HE-ers who allow tv and computer use without limits super motivated people who are always 'doing stuff'? do your kids 'do stuff' because you do? or because they're self-motivated or to avoid boredom? do they or you ever just waste time totally unproductively and how much 'downtime' do you encourage?

I have always been quite a firm parent and as my kids have become older I realise that I do have to work more on mutual respect or the teenage years will be explosive. But how will my children react to a complete turnaround in my attitude and the potentially damaging aspect of me being a much better parent but then blowing up occassionally because the habits of 13 years are difficult to stop overnight? I hope this doesn't sound like I think I'm a bad parent as I don't believe I am but over the last few days it's clear that AE is not just about letting kids want to do what they want educationally, it's a complete lifestyle and so if I want to AE I'll need to change other things about our family. If they can be changed...

Another concern I have is that when I initially home eded it became apparent very quickly that OH and I weren't on the same page. Being at home with the kids all day I really mellowed out but his life remained the same and I would get annoyed at what seemed too firm an approach - I just hadn't noticed it before. This did cause frustration and conflict amongst the two of us. HE is already a big ask for OH so I can't expect him to change the way he has always functioned just because all of a sudden I've seen the light!

Advice dear ladies!

are all you Autonomous HE-ers who allow tv and computer use without limits super motivated people who are always 'doing stuff'? do your kids 'do stuff' because you do? or because they're self-motivated or to avoid boredom? do they or you ever just waste time totally unproductively and how much 'downtime' do you encourage?

anyone who has read the HE thread or Mumsnet page, knows how much time I waste on computers.....
but if there is something I want to do more, I'll do it.

I don't encourage downtime or any other sort of time generally. Although I might have suggested a stressed person struggling or frustrated with a concept or thought they are trying to write about, that maybe a walk round the woods with the dog/half an hours mad dancing/something else liberating, maybe would help break the tension.

Otherwise they do what they want to do.
Boredom we used to suggest (it came up when they first came out of school, used as they were to being spoon fed what to do next) is good, as it will lead o you thinking of what else you would like to do.

I also don't see 'down time' as unproductive. I often need time for my subconscious to ruminate on something, before writing an essay/paper/script...and will do something seemingly mindless, which allows that to happen.
The kids seem to find such time similarly valuable....

errr-I'm not sure if that is any sort of answer?

thanks julie - is interesting... i think i just have an overactive imagination and underactive body and so am always a little dissapointed at all the potential things i'm NOT doing at any time

i went to school and uni and worked full-time office hours till recently... (i still work full-time, just to my own hours now) maybe i am still institutionalised in a way that HE children are not?

Colleger, a non defensive / non confrontational approach doesn't come naturally to me either - not what I grew up with at all ( major understatement!). The only way I've learned is by reading books, flavour of the month currently is ' Taking the War Out of Words' by Sharon Strand Ellison.

DH has come around to my way of thinking as he sees me put ideas into practice and the nice results which follow. It kind of had to start with me.
Good luck!