Autonomous Home Based Education.

[julienoshoes]

Okay- I am not looking for a discussion over whether the choice to HE or not, is right.
I'm not looking for comments about school either, as it would be irrelevant to Autonomous HE unless a child requested to go.
I'm not even looking for comments about whether HE should be parent led, or child led.
You each make the choice that is right for you family, as far as I am concerned.

But as a result of the recent boost in members on the Mumsnet HE FaceBook page, (where any style of home educator is welcome-or those interested in becoming one) and questions asked there, I went looking for something I'd posted elsewhere.
For those of you interested in an Autonomous style of home education, I thought this might give you a little insight into 'our' AE:

Autonomous home education fascinates me-you never know where you are going to end up in any one day. I could be helping with sociology statistics, or with revising psychology theories. We could be involved in painting a Warhammer figure, doing a piece of ?Batik? or making a rag rug. We have taken long, long walks and talked and talked and talked. I have helped to write a poem on a beautiful hillside in Malvern and helped to Lucy to commit it to memory to be performed at a Street Festival. I have learned to milk a goat. We helped to take down a tee pee in the valley of the river Wye. I have helped to make electrical circuits and bath bombs. We have curled up in bed, reading stories for hours on end, on wintry days and made igloos in the snow on a snowy day. We have been fossil hunting on a beach in the sun and the rain! In short all the wonderful things other parents of schooled children, get to do for short periods between school, home work and bed, and in school holidays, we get to do all day if we want ;o)

Autofocus??? Autonomous!

I love the idea of autonomous learning - we haven't done anything formal so far and I'm continually surprised and amazed at what my children know and can do. But I worry that autonomous wouldn't work for me! I'm very structured and can get pretty depressed and lethargic if I don't have a routine and some goals to aim for each day (have some aspergers traits). I think I'm better in myself (and therefore can be a better mum) if we do have those things. I worry that I would go potty if I didn't know what was going to happen each day. Does that make sense?

Very interesting thread... Our DDs are still only 4.5 and 2 but we've been vaguely autonomous HE-ers from the start (if it can be described as such with tiny ones!) I say "vaguely" because I do limit screen time at the moment and every day we do about 10mins reading and 10 mins piano with DD1 (at a time chosen by her). I never have to insist and it was her choice months ago to do this as wants to be able to read and wants to be able to play the piano. She understands that both require work, they won't just happen. So in answer to your question Colleger- I'm sure that French at some point every day would fit well- particularly if your DS really understood your reasons for this.
I do the "strewing" thing as mentioned above a lot! Mostly with objects/books/games that I've found in charity shops and squirrelled away until an appropriate time, and it seems to work well for us.
Like Julienoshoes I've found that, even at this early stage, embracing the direction that the children want to go in can be an amazing adventure for everybody. I very often have rough plan for the day that gets completely ditched because we find a worm in the shape of a "S" and want to make some giant ones out of cardboard so we have to go and ask a local shopkeeper for some big boxes, which make perfect little boats to sail around the living room (singing every nautical song we can think of) and then landing on a treasure island (quick- draw a map!) get dressed up as pirates and wind up in a discussion about whales and how big they are compared to Uncle Robin and how they can be heard halfway to Grandma's house (cue David Attenborough and half an hour of nature film before tea). That was this afternoon. Tomorrow they'll find the cardboard snakes and we'll go from there. I love it and I'm sure they both do too.

I can see two problems with that plan, Colleger:

1. If he really just doesn't want to do the French, you could spend two hours a day arguing over it. Then it won't be 1% anymore. Some of my friends find that the small amount of "work" which they are requiring their children to do dominates their day, and their relationship, disproportionately.

1. Some (like me) would say that requiring a child to learn something is sending him the wrong message about learning: that learning is a chore, and that he can't be trusted to figure out for himself what he needs. This might affect his attitude toward learning in general.

However, very few of my friends follow the autonomous approach 100%. Almost everyone will say that there are one or two sticking points for them. Interestingly, these sticking points seem to be the areas which the parents themselves dislike most, often maths. Perhaps they just cannot believe that their child might like it, so they feel it has to be compulsory? Am I right? How do you feel personally about French?

Flussymummy those are our days too, except mine are older and most of our tangents are in discussion and research form. As far as radical unschooling, I think I would be totally on board, perhaps I didnt explain myself or think it through very well when I previously posted. I have absolutely no problem with my kids staying up very late, all night if they want reading or doing whatever one does in the quiet peacefulness of the night. My dh otoh isnt so keen/doesnt approve. I do put limits on what they watch only bc some of the stuff on tv isnt very nice. Saying that, Ive discovered that they make up their own mind about stuff like that anyway, they usually agree with me and I usually discuss the reasons why I say 'Lets not watch that anymore'. Now, stuff like The Walking Dead. That would give them nightmares. Dh and I watch it but when we all sat down to watch them together I found that it was way too heavy for them and said 'wait a little while for that sort of thing.' CSI got too heavy with rape and murder and we got addicted to it and I had to put the breaks on. They dont have a tv in their room except to watch dvds, play games. Im working my way to being more autonomous tho in those areas actually. Not sure how dh is going to feel about it all when after the so many months we're 'supposed to be taking' for deschooling is 'up' and he sees we're carrying on getting less structured. I think he's becoming less and less 'worried' as time goes by and perhaps by then he'll be open to reading up on the subject. So far he's just witnessed and taken my word for it, which is a blessing. Atleast he's more open and getting less stressed about it all these days.

Oh crap! I've been outed as a French ( language) hater!

The other issue I have is that DS doesn't like doing any work but he takes great pride and confidence when he can relay facts or do something because he learnt it a few months back. I noticed this initially with his music. He wasn't passionate at first but when he got a lot of praise (I'm not saying that's a good thing) or attention because of his ability or his instrument choice being a rare one, his previously low self esteem rose dramatically. At that point I decided I would be strict about practice for that reason but also because if he wanted lessons and an expensive instrument bought then that was the deal. Now he's passionate but he certainly wasn't eight months ago.

Like notatschool I love the idea of autonomous learning, it's the main attraction of HE for me. Having seen the curiosity of my almost 3yr old and watched how he learns so amazingly, I would love to give him the freedom to continue in the same way. And also similarly, I doubt my own ability to facilitate this and retain my own sanity! I read flussymummy's description of her meandering learning adventure day and think yes I would love that but maybe for a couple of mornings/ days a week, not every day! I love a bit of structure, some tangible goals - don't think I have aspergers traits but may need to check!

I suppose my questions are around finding the balance between DS's needs and my own. Having been at home with him since he was born I can feel the need now to put my own ideas into action, to participate again outside our home. I'd love to know how others have managed this - combined being there as a support to their children as they learn autonomously without their own identity being subsumed to that process. Is it simply about chilcare? Do these issues resolve themselves as the children grow older? What practical ways do you avoid feeling claustrophobic and under each other's feet?

Maybe I've just had a particularly intense toddler week!

About the French, I was struggling with a similar issue myself. There are several things I would like ds to do but he shows no interest at all. The theory behind A.E as I understand it is that you cannot force anyone to learn and pressure creates aversion. So you risk creating a situation where he learns very little French but instead learns to hate French and thus will not want to learn it in the future. How would you like it if your dh forced you to do 10 mins of something you thought was pointless every day?
What I would do about something I would
like ds to learn is to provide interesting resources and experiences in the language, and let him see me using it and enjoying it. So for example you could get French CDs and play them, French computer games, French DVDs, you could have some French books around, or you could even pay a French student to come round and talk French to you all - but to you alone if your child isn't interested. So you create an environment where French is useful and interesting and around, and if your child chooses they will start to learn French. They might not though, that is the autonomous bit. I am struggling with this as I would like to say 'we are going to do this' but I know that works really badly with my son.

Maybe I am also influenced by my experience of music, we were made to practice every day. It hung over everyday and I hated it although I enjoyed the lessons. I did very well at it, got distinction at grade 8 as did all my siblings. Now I never ever play my instrument and nor do any of my siblings,

How does AE help in future life when a child goes into the workplace and decides they don't like a certain task required of them and because everything they've ever done has been pleasing to them they don't know how to cope or they refuse to do it? This may be a bonkers question and I may have misunderstood AE so I am genuinely not being antagonistic as as I've said, AE would be the easy, stress free option for me!

Colleger, if you hate French and your ds has enjoyed attention because of choosing to learn an obscure instrument, maybe he'd rather learn Lithuanian? Other than that I was going to suggest (if you had protested that you really do love French!) exactly what chocolatecrispies suggested: indulge yourself by learning the things which interest you, or demonstrate a good work ethic by learning things which you don't like but which will help you achieve some other goal such as furthering your career. When you create an environment like this, full of interesting things AND with a mum who practices what she preaches by continuing to learn herself, he is more likely to want to have a go himself.

"How does AE help in future life when a child goes into the workplace and decides they don't like a certain task required of them and because everything they've ever done has been pleasing to them they don't know how to cope or they refuse to do it?" As they get older their goals become more ambitious and they find that in order to achieve them, they need to do some things they don't like so much. As soon as a young person's Warhammer ambitions exceed parental finance then presumably he will want to find ways of raising money. If he wants to get together a group of young people with whom to do Warhammer, he may find he can overcome a fear of talking to strangers in order to invite strangers to his group. If he hates tidying up but it's made clear that tidying up is a condition of inviting half a dozen friends round to do Warhammer, he'll make himself do some tidying. If he is too lazy to clean his brushes properly after use, he'll find they get ruined and he has to pay for more. If he wants a job at the local Games Workshop but they say they'll only accept candidates who demonstrate competence in arithmetic, he'll swot up on arithmetic. If he wants to get to Level 30 of a video game but Level 29 is quite unpleasant, he'll grit his teeth and tolerate Level 29... or find a creative way to bypass Level 29 altogether such as getting his brother to do it for him (a tremendously useful skill in business and politics!). Most little kids aren't into this sort of delayed gratification, but older ones get the hang of it in time.

Alwayshome, I do think this is about childcare when your children are little. When my older daughter was small, I really enjoyed working part-time while other people looked after her. I used home educating childminders so from her point of view she was getting more chances to play with friends and visit other houses and see new toys, but a variety of childcare solutions are possible. Now she is 12 she is very independent and I no longer feel she is hard work, and her little sister has always pottered happily on her own for much of the time. So life is quite pleasant and easy for me at the moment. I can hardly believe my luck after the intensity of the early years with my firstborn!!

It does get better as they get older - MUCH better! - though I understand that the challenges continue for those few children who are needy of parental input right through their teens, such as those who have high levels of anxiety.

Does autonomous learning have the advantage of young people growing up and entering the work place knowing they have chosen the right profession. For e.g I see many young people taking A levels and Degrees in subjects, not knowing what they want to do, with no particular role in mind. My dd has said she wants to be an opera singer. I am taking her seriously as I know what I wanted to do when I was 3. I didn't do it exactly but I did enter the same indudstry and did very similar work. Maybe school and all the bureaucracy stops children from pursuing their dreams and reaching their goals.

I love the sound of autonomous learning. But I am convinced my son would want to spend all day every day playing on his DS or watching football on TV. How do you stop this happening? Or do you think that actually, if he was able to spend 7 hours a day on these things he'd quickly get bored of them and move on to something else?

That's my fear too, Fayrazzled. It feels like too much of a risk to spend however long it might take for him to 'find his way', then if he doesn't he could be several years behind and it would take ages to undo the kind of attitude he might develop. Ds has AS and ADHD and needs a lot of direction in all aspects of day-to-day life, and I just can't see him being motivated under his own steam.

I admit too that even after three and a half years of HE, I know very few autonomous kids who are rounded, socially adept and doing well. I guess that skews my viewpoint and I'd perhaps be more in favour of it if the odds looked better.

Streakybacon. I speak as a teacher not H.eder. Do you think that the lack of socially, rounded, adept kids who have been AE, is perhaps down to the parent/s not embracing the theory. I am interested as I would like to go down this route with dd, but share yours and others concerns.

I think sometimes parents follow an AE route because their children are always going to be square pegs, and it's better to go with their educational flow rather than to spend umpteen years fighting an institution, or having the child fighting the institution or (in HE) having the parents fighting the child.

So those children aren't going to look socially rounded and adept, but they wouldn't have in school either. I think a lot of people with spectrummy children have this pressure - almost as if with the right therapy, the right school, the right HE method, the child would magically have become neurotypical. Ain't gonna happen. Better to work with that child not against them, so that they become one of the 20% of people with autism who do have the skills and self-motivation to find employment as they reach adulthood, IMO. And that's likely to look like AE.

ommmward. I see what you mean about square pegs as ds2 was like this and unfortunately school failed him. I could weep, honestly.
However, dd totally different no Aspergers we believe...... She is very demanding though, highly strung and sensitive. Not that its obvious to anybody else, so not pronounced really. Is what you describe above a similar situation and do you think HE could work for all children.
Sorry to dump on you, but you seem so experienced here.

Been chatting about AE to OH today and he's convinced it won't work with a 12 year old about to come out of school and that DS would mess about for three years and potentially never do a jot of work ever again. Does anyone have experience of AE from when a child was HE'd from secondary school onwards?

Absolutely fascinating thread. I'm too controlling unsure to go down this route - semi-structured is where we're at - but I'm really interested to hear these viewpoints. to those taking the time to explain.

Can't help with direct experience there, Colleger. It's certainly true that once off the race track, your son might well take a long time to recover his self-motivation, love of learning and self-confidence. I'd ask your husband whether he'd prefer that process to happen: now; in a painful nervous breakdown half way through university; after a mid-life crisis; or hold off until retirement.

I don't know whether HE could work for all children, potatoprints. For a highly-strung and sensitive child, I'd expect them to be harder work if the regular stress of school (assuming it is stressful for that particular child) was in their weekly routine. I'm one of those people who keeps the parental lap available while other people are muttering darkly about "needing to become independent" and "apron strings" and "have you put his/her name down for nursery yet?" and "of course I would not tolerate such behaviours in my children

Does anyone have experience of AE from when a child was HE'd from secondary school onwards?

Me
They were 13, 11 and 8 when we deregistered them. We autonomously home educated them all the way through to FE college.
They are all in Further Education now......
.....and all considered to be well rounded, socially adept and successful, by their friends, tutors, employers.....and even Mr Badman........

if he was able to spend 7 hours a day on these things he'd quickly get bored of them and move on to something else?

In my experience yes.....especially when other interesting stuff is on offer.....

How does AE help in future life when a child goes into the workplace and decides they don't like a certain task required of them and because everything they've ever done has been pleasing to them they don't know how to cope or they refuse to do it?

We haven't had that problem at all, we haven't made them do anything since we became autonomous educators.
They have chosen to go to college for instance, chosen the courses they wanted to do and committed to doing it.
We didn't call them to get up, get clothes prepared, nag them to do assignments or anything else. They knew it isn't my decision whether or not they attended etc. I wouldn't have shouted to get them up or anything else.
But they did it all, getting themselves up/ready/assignments in. Their choices their commitment.
it's been the same with employment.
they have got a job when they have needed and chosen to get one.
They get themselves up, ready for work and get there. Do whatever is needed at work, I'm told.
Employers have given them glowing references every time.
One told me "She stands head and shoulders above every other youngster I've employed"
They have all needed to earn money as we have such a small limited income, They knew that it would be part of the deal of us home educating.

Ds is in his second year at Uni know, reading Psychology. He really hates statistics. But he knows it something that has just got to be done to get through this course, and onto his chosen career. So he does it, without complaint. In fact he has worked harder on it, he says because he knows he finds it hard-but why wouldn't he? To do the course/keep the job, whatever we are talking of, he's made the commitment because it's something he has chosen freely to do, so of course he'll do it.

DD1 says, she has done some of the jobs, just for the money she needs, but it has made her more determined to work harder and get a job she does love....

as I have said elsewhere in this HE section of mumsnet, I literally know hundreds of autonomously home educated young people in real life now.
Every single one of them is doing really well in FE College, Uni, employment and self employment.

if anyone wants to talk to me about AE off mumsnet, (I have become increasingly aware this week after discussions about that other negative thread, that there are a lot of lurkers here, who are too frightend to post) I can be found on the Mumsnet HE FaceBook page along with a lot of other friendly HE faces (some autonomous, some definitely not-all are welcome)
or you could reach me directly on the contact button for Worcestershire Home Educators