Feeling panicky about aggressive, lazy, negative HE'd 12 year old

[Shagmundfreud]

Took dd out of her secondary at the beginning of the term with a view to HE. She was keen, we were keen to get her out of a school where the social environment was very, very tough and where she didn't appear to be learning much at all, except how to be rude to teachers, do no work and get away with it.

So, have now done half a term's HE and this is the current situation:

• she has put on what looks like about half a stone as she WON'T exercise, and now she's not doing the walk to school and PE she doesn't even get a minimal amount. She is overweight now I suspect - she is certainly starting to look it. I have offered to pay for dance classes, ask her to come for walks (she came - once, but usually refuses).
• she refuses to sign up for guides or do any organised activities at all.
• she sits in her horrible, squalid, stinking room watching crap on her lap top for HOURS a day unless I confiscate laptop.
• she does the bare minimum of anything apart from eat crap. If we plead, nag and threaten she'll do a bit of maths. She has a maths tutor who is costing £35 a week who is very good, and she does JUST enough so this woman doesn't get angry with her.
• She has written one story since finishing school and made such a fuss about it. She still hasn't finished it.
• She is reading. That's the one positive thing. She's read more in half a term than she's read in the previous year in total.
• She won't help me with anything around the house unless I plead with her.
• She's rude and aggressive to me about everything really, unless I'm giving her what she wants.

She doesn't want to do anything. Except go out after school with the girls she knew at school, who themselves appear to have no hobbies, no ambition.

I now have the added stress of having her around me being rude all day, and I'm feeling panicky and inadequate that I can't get her to do ANYTHING constructive.

Then my ASD 6 year old comes home at 3pm and I have to cope with his very challenging behaviour, which exhausts me.

My time during the day was my own before this and I knew that was going to go. I wouldn't resent it if she just met me half way - just showed she was trying with something. Anything. Craft, music, writing. Anything. Just not shouting at me, being critical and rude, and sitting on her backside doing nothing.

Am also feeling ready to crack under the strain of other people's disapproval and pointed questioning.

She's not happy, is she? And neither are you.

I think you have to consider placing her back into school, with the help of the Head Teacher and Head of Year. I had some 'progress' issues with my son in Years 7 and 8, and had thoughts of pulling him out - in the end I did ask for a meeting with the Head to go through it all, and she, and the Deputy, were amazing at listening and helping - this at a large state secondary. My DS is happy there now - it's been a long haul, don't get me wrong, but things are so much better because I asked for and got help.

Your DD also needs some structure and routine, and there need to be consequences that she understands. I got loads of advice on MN, and obviously what's right for one family isn't right for another; but MN did get me to understand that structure is the key. That applies to DCs no matter how they are educated.

Best of luck.

I've tried to implement a structure and a routine. I've used sanctions. She's not been allowed out for three weeks because she's refused to comply.

She's lost her phone.

We've confiscated her lap top.

She's been sent to bed early.

We have tried everything, when she was at school and now she's at home.

She won't co-operate. She screams at me and verbally abuses me.

How long as this been going on for, if you don't me asking?

don't mind me asking sorry

No, she refuses to return to the school we've taken her out of.

Her behaviour had been TERRIBLE since starting at this school and socially it's a very challenging environment (for which read: full of children from verydisadvantaged backgrounds).

She's been very difficult for about a year or two, but I'm at the end of my tether with it now. I feel threatened and abused by her and feel like I'm not coping.

The beginning of the Easter term? Not sure, but if so, it sounds v normal. Most kids take a long time to deschool? Particularly at 12, I would have thought. We haven't been through it, but usually it's best to remove all expectations completely vis a vis school work during that period (so not go straight into maths tutors/ forcing the issue wrt any 'education'. Literally allow the kid to holiday and get all of the school routine and stress out of their system (and also the parent, too. Often the parent continues to have 'school' expectations or a 'school' mindset - this would particularly be the case if you still have one at school, probably?)

Hopefully some folk who have been through this themselves will be along soon, but it sounds absolutely 100% normal. And to be expected. And possibly being exacerbated by the your own Imposed HE routine at this point? Is it possible to back off completely? Lots of folk go through a period of allowing unrestricted access to computers etc whilst everything settles.

There are also some really good books about HE and teens that she could read when she is ready, which might give her a bit of direction herself, rather than everything being imposed on her externally, a la school. I think it's called 'the teenage liberation handbook'. I haven't read it, but have seen it recommended. Might be worth checking it out yourself, I think one edition had a controversial discussion around drugs or similar that you might want to be aware of before she gets hold of it.

And, reading is good. Reading is fab. If she is still reading, she is still learning.

It has only been weeks. Give it some time. Perfectly normal to be anxious - it has been a huge change for all of you. X

Sounds like you're both depressed and unhappy.

There's one thing you're glad about - that's the reading. Maybe you could focus on that?

Are there any particular books that she'd like to read? Maybe get them from the library.

Hi,
Sorry you are struggling at the moment. I know you were unhappy with the school she was at, but can I ask was she unhappy? Did she ask to be home educated?
Obviously we dont know your full situation at all and can only comment on what you have posted, but you both sound miserable.
When children first come out of school they need a period of adjustment deschooling like already mentioned. They need time to fill their days how they would like, so that their love of learning returns. It sounds like at the moment you are paying out a lot of money for maths lessons she isnt enjoying. I would be tempted to use that money on something instead that you can all enjoy. Go out bowling, watch a movie, buy her some new books to read of her choosing. She doesnt need to write stories, she can have the enjoyment from reading them instead.
I also wouldnt be expecting her to do anything more around the house than if she was at school.
Its a real hard one isnt it? as she sounds like she is missing contact with the friends she had had school hence the reason she is looking to meet up with them after school, they are her friends, but i can fully understand that it makes you uncomfortable if they arent the type of friends that you want her mixing with.
Can you get her out to some local home education groups so she can meet up with different teenagers? Most groups families stay with their kids, so you would have the support of other adults to have a chat with and she would also have the chance to meet some new people and possibly have so much fun she may not look for the old friends as much.
The other thing you could consider as you are already paying out for tuition is Interhigh. Its a internet school and wouldnt cost you much more than you are already paying. She would be able to chat with children her own age during lessons, all the lessons are live.Just an idea.
I hope things improve for you both.

Hi

From what you say your daughter's been out of school a couple of months and in that time she's done a lot of independent reading.

Some people around you don't think she is doing enough, nor that you are making her do enough.

You also have the stuffing knocked out of you daily by being the parent of a challenging autistic 6 year old.

I think the disapproving naysayers should be told to back off, and informed that when you want their opinion, you'll ask for it.

And as some other posters here have said, look for the positives. I'm sure she knows you think she's overweight, and I do remember with my mum that if she said the slightest thing which could be construed as critical I would snarl at her.

Obviously if the aggression to which you refer is physical ie shoving or throwing things at you, then I'd be saying something different.

I think she needs deschooled. Let her do what she wants for a while.

the crap food she can't eat if it is not in the house. I think you shood drop the maths tutoring for now (maybe pick it up again in time) and the attempt to impose a schedule on her learning at home. She had 2 years of great stress at school in a negative social environment by the sounds of it and she needs time to get that out of her system. Without making a big fuss out of it, I would try to encourage her reading since she is doing that anyway and look for some kind of home education groups like others have said where she can mingle with dc who are not at her old school and acquire some different social skills perhaps by doing so. Once she likes dc there and finds out what they do, she may feel interested in joining something with the dc she knows and likes.

Try to read something by John Holt. I have only read one of his books which was an updated version by Pat Farenga and is called "Teach your own". I found it interesting reading.

should not shood ..

I think she needs a state boarding school in the circumstances.

It's possible that your dd has low self esteem. Reading up on how to combat this might help.

You can't force her to learn or to care for herself better but what you can do is help her to make those decisions which will affect her future.

How about suggesting to her that you take a holiday from 'education' and let her plan how you can spend your week together. Just chat with her about nothing in particular, ask her opinion on things, listen to her.

Start a project together, what about building one of those 3D world puzzles, it's educational after all. Cookery is a form of science. Perhaps she could take up photography (related to art). Learn about massage (biology). There are lots of activities you could do together where she is learning and enjoying her time with you.

Once she is more confident and you have a better relationship with each other you may be able to talk about the best way for her to get an education. It's her future, she will eventually want a job and to be able to afford her own home, maybe travel, start a business, etc. Get her to think about what she might be interested in doing and to care a bit more about where life is taking her.

Is there any voluntary work you could do together? Seeing what life is like for other people can sometimes be a bit of an eye-opener for teenagers and young adults. Could she have some responsibilities of her own, maybe an easy to care for pet such as a guinea pig?

When she feels better about herself, I am sure she will be willing to be more active and care more about her physical appearance. Just try to make sure that the only food options in the house are healthy choices. Fruit, carrot sticks, cheese cubes, etc. instead of biscuits, crisps or chocolate. But don't mention weight gain to her, just let her know you think she is beautiful and that you love her.

Other peoples' negative opinions are not important, try to ignore them. And try to find some time for yourself too.

Most people who know anything about home education, would expect a child to take at least a month for every year in school to get it out of their system.
I'd say from experience that it would take a child who has been damaged by the system much longer.

I agree with the Fiona. Focus on the positive. She is already choosing one way to get an education, by reading. It will not look like a schooly education-because it is not. But she will be learning. Other than that I'd declare yourselves on a long summer holiday til September. Do what Fairenuff says. One half a term is really not very much time at all.

I'd read The Teenage Liberation Handbook: How to Quit School and Get a Real Life and Education and then give it to your daughter to read.

Is it possible for someone to be with her-my kids were happy to cook with Granny in the early days but not me, so you can have a bit of me time?

hi , i can feel for you, as can any mum with teen children of any age can tell you . i dont know if ive missed anything, but how how old is your dd? i know that teens from school OR home ed are totaly vile at times, or all the times as it seems with mine. my 17 yr ds has got a place at college doing ITC, but doesnt like going in half the time (crap parent syndrome, i dont think) and a 15 yr ds who HATES doing any form of 'work' i ask him to do, from maths to wiping his arse at the moment lol...........
Then you look at some other wonderful, fantastic home edders who have done a fantastic job and can even laugh at the other end and we ALL know we are slowly getting there AND YES we will all manage it to, but in our own way and own time. it's not a race any more. we aren't in school anymore, and its FANTASIC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

here's a link to read http://www.arvindguptatoys.com/arvindgupta/teenlib.pdf The Teeneage Liberation Handbook online

I wonder why that link didn't work. I'll try again Teenage Liberation Handbook online

My opinion, FWIW, is that perhaps look at other schools together in your area.
It doesnt sound to me as if she has problem with school as such, could be just the school she was in.
And she enjoys socialising so being away from children her age must be hard.

Could she actually be clinically depressed? Two years of a highly stressful environment would put strain on anyone's mental health. Sounds like you can't talk to her easily but is there another adult or older sibling who might be able to ask her how she is feeling? If she is very low I'm not sure waiting months for her to 'deschool' would be useful. Many of the behaviours you describe are symptoms of depression.

Thank you everyone for your responses and support!

Had an ok weekend as dd has been at my mums for most of it, helping with her little cousins. She is fantastic with small children and babies so it's nice for her to spend some time doing something's she's genuinely good at and reaping all the appreciation she gets when she is being helpful.

Chocolate, I don't think she's depressed. TBH when she's getting her own way she's in EXCELLENT spirits, has lots of friends and is very very chatty and social. She's just a nightmare when she's not getting her own way.

Smillion, we will put her name on some waiting lists - she has asked me too as she has said she misses seeing her friends at school. However she doesn't want to go back to the school she's just left and I don't want her to go back there either. Waiting lists at any half decent schools in our area are long unfortunately and she may not get a place for year 9. Mumof4, will look at InterHigh - could be one answer if a school palace isn't going to happen any time soon.

Fairenough thank you for your suggestions - they're really nice! If I can stop feeling angry and upset with her (I was sobbing down the phone to Parentline on Friday ) I may get some creative ideas myself. At the moment though I'm just so disheartened with her unwillingness to meet me half way on anything. But we shall see. If I can avoid confrontation with her over the next few days maybe we'll both be more open to doing something fun.

Zzz - 'crap food' in this house means tonnes of butter, cheese, bacon, salami. I don't buy crisps and biscuits but dd can eat her own body weight in sausages and cheese. DH would die of depression if he had to face a fridge full of low fat food after work so the answer has got to be dd controlling herself and not being greedy. As far as the Mathis goes actually she really enjoys her tutoring - really likes the teacher and always comes out smiling so for the time being that will stay on the agenda.

Boffinmum - couldn't afford even a state boarding school but in any case, as someone who went to a residential school myself at the age of 11 I would NEVER do this to my own child while there was breath left in my body to say 'no'.

Fiona thank you for you kind words. Yes 'stuffing knocked out' is entirely it. Really struggling with lack of formal diagnosis and support for ds. Have been on waiting list for CAMHS for 6 months now. He has seen the EP twice in two years at school but we have NOTHING on paper as she has been off on long term sick leave and the school hasn't got anyone in to cover her. Am so eaten up with anger over the situation that I have to discipline myself not to think about it too much as it makes me want to cry. A lot.

Mumof4darlings - Yes she asked to be HE. Was very keen. As far as her helping me around the house, I don't expect much but I do think it's important she makes SOME contribution to the running of the home she shares. DH and I are exhausted with work and keeping home. DH works LONG hours. I also work. It's not right that a capable 12 year old should feel it's ok to sit on her backside and be waited on while the adults around her run themselves into the ground with work. It's not respectful and is teaching her poor values. And actually when I can get her to do it she feels good about it afterwards. Makes her feel more grown up and important.

Julien have ordered that book - sounds great!

Meant to say, I had my second child at home And the disapproval, distrust, skepticism and judgementalism that sometimes accompanies choosing an out of hospital birth is very similar to that you sometimes feel with HE. I'm shocked by how much it's upset me.

Hadnt noticed you had responded.
Have you asked your DD if she wants to continue with the HE.
Could she have changed her mind and is scared to tell you, though from what you have said, doesnt sound like she would be scared.

Hi, I took ds1 (10yo) out of school approx 9 months ago and it's been really up and down but overall I think it is very good for both of us. Yes, he was rude and aggressive, and probably depressed too. He had been through a terrible experience and he was hitting back at the people close to him rather than standing up for himself in school, where he lacked confidence. At the start of our homeschooling there was a whole lot of shouting at each other and I threatened to send him back to school over and over again. And although I knew about deschooling, I still expected too much from him in terms of self-motivation and how much work we would actually get through.

I would say that it's this term that we have started to get into a good routine, but right from the start I asked him to do chores around the house. He needed to recognise that by homeschooling him I was dedicating extra time to him that I couldn't spend doing chores. I gave him a few options and told him to choose the two that he would do each day. Now each day he puts on some laundry and empties the dishwasher for me. Most if not all homeschoolers that I have contact with expect their children to do some chores.

It also took me a while to work out how to balance our time, so that it's not all to do with him, and not all to do with me. Going to a yoga class once a week really helped (he just sat in the corner and read). Meeting up with other homeschoolers also helped - especially ones who had been doing it for longer than me, and ones who had kids about the same age that he bonded with. It took a while to find the right group but now we are both happy with it and even if we don't do anything else each week, we go to the homeschool meetup.

I expect him to do a little bit of maths and a little bit of English each day, but it's not very much. We have started working through the Writer's Jungle from Brave Writer and her approach is about appreciating where your child is coming from, what they are 'experts' on and what they want to talk about. If they are passionate about something they will want to talk or write about it and they will eventually find their own 'voice'. Formal writing comes later in her 'Help for High School' program. Other people on the (Australian) homeschool forum I frequent have said it worked wonders for their reluctant writers.

Like your daughter, ds1 reads all the time, and this is great. Our local library is wonderful and we go there together at least once a week. He probably goes there far more often on his own, as he's often popping in on the way to or from something else. They also have quite a few organised activities for his age group. It might be worth looking into whether there's something similar for your daughter? Or any other activity, especially one that she could go to on her own rather than you having to drag yourself and your ds out too.

Oh, not directly related to homeschooling but I found that reading 'The Explosive Child' really helped me and dh to understand ds1 a little bit more. Strangely, I bought it for ds2 but it applies far more to ds1. Now we can look at his 'explosions' as being not deliberately trying to antagonise us, but being due to what the author calls 'lagging skills'. If we see it like that then we can work on the skills he needs.