Term time school holidays

[FWN1987]

I needed abit of help as am really stressed out.

I have booked a family holiday in October for 4 weeks. 2 weeks will be when it is school holidays and 2 weeks out of school holidays.

I see the rules have changed and getting a 3rd fine in 3 years will take you to court.

Now the part where i am stressed out is we have had 2 fines in the last 2 years. Will the fines from the previous years count to this year and ultimately this holiday will land me in court?

TIA

Exactly. I really don't know why people have bought into this ridiculous idea that children must be at school every single day in order to get a good education. It's just utter rubbish.

It's 2 weeks of absence as 2 weeks are in the holidays.

Please don't 'fix' my post for me, it's not required. I see the impact of absence from education every day. It is a huge problem and it has a lasting and real impact, even for those children who ultimately do very well.

13 days is not a short time, it is almost three weeks.
Presumably also there will be occasional sickness as well.
In your case, I'd totally understand taking a week every year (or most years) but that's really quite different to taking almost three.
Plus, the knock on affect of everyone missing several weeks is disruptive to teaching everyone.

As a teacher, I beg to differ. The practise and apply part of the lesson is just as important as the imput. If the children did not have time to practise and embed the learning, it would not stick. Missing two weeks of school could mean your child has missed out on the whole block on measures and time for instance, or they have not learnt how to use inverted commas.

I think everything reset from august 2024

So many people can have no real understanding of how hard it is living a continent away from your family and or culture.
Take them out of school.
I taught in a very prestigious grammar school at one point in my life, I got used to half my class going missing way before the summer break because they were visiting family abroad. It's incredibly important in my opinion and the kids were happy, did well in their exams and us teachers coped just fine.
The rigidity of the system and blame shift because of decades of underinvestment in schools, more children growing up in poverty is the real problem. But the villagers get their pitch forks out and get sent chasing down the wrong person/people yet again. Yawn.

How old are your children?

I do think the school will / should take a hard line on this. You've already had one term time absence for a holiday. I'm not sure how the religious pilgrimage will be viewed, but you must understand that so many days / weeks off in term time over three years has to be dealt with by the school?

I wouldn't expect a teacher to say anything different 😆

You should look at the statistics for school leavers being able to read and actually have the relevant qualifications to enter college. Not to mention the mental health issues and reply with it's the best place for kids to be from 4-17 because they learn so much in school 😅🤦🏼‍♀️

Some children in different countries would kill for an education. Yet people here just clearly take the piss. Many seem to take the piss as well judging by the replies here.

Maybe we should fine them for how much it costs the tax payer for missed school days. Per day.

The reason there has been new rules released is because people keep taking their kids out of school every year!!
They get enough holidays, I know it's more expensive, but it's also unfair on the kids and the teachers taking so much time off during the school term.

I think to a certain extent it depends on the child.

My dd would probably be fine to have the odd week off here and there in primary school. It would probably have made her life more difficult catching up but she would have managed.

My DS doesn’t really cope well with time off. He doesn’t catch up well when he’s been ill for a few days. He didn’t catch up well after Covid (I am a public sector worker who couldn’t be furloughed so couldn’t devote my days to homeschool, but wasn’t considered “key” in the first lockdown) - I feel like I massively failed him by not fighting for a school place from the get go.

The problem, I think, is that parents aren’t really thinking about whether their child is the first type, like my Dd, or the second, like my ds - or whatever different sort of child they are quite apart from those examples. No critical thinking is really being applied except “it’s cheaper in term time”. Not in every case, but in many.

I don’t take either of them out of school for holidays and never have done.

In my opinion, poor attendance day to day is different from a week off a year to go on a holiday with family. Plenty of children out there with unstable home lives / parents who don’t care or who are struggling themselves who are out of school and at home watching tv and getting nothing out of not being in school. Also lots of neurodivergent children who find it hard to cope in schools and so have poor attendance. These are both big, valid concerns for schools and are not addressed by fines and court dates. In fact fines and court dates just make the entire situation worse for these types of families / children. Taking a child who is meeting all their targets in school and has good attendance otherwise out for a holiday abroad where they will experience a different culture, a different country, reconnect with family, etc etc is just not the same.

At the very least, the gov should have brought in these news rules at the same time as capping school holiday travel prices. But no…Watch the wealth gap widen even more as now only who are well off can afford to go abroad and show their children the world

Totally agree here. Although I think over 2 weeks is a bit too much.

We do 1 week( 5 school days) almost every year(they don't fine in Wales unless under 90% attendance and never heard of anyone being fined Locally). There is a difference between the odd holiday a year and persistent absence, which needs to be tackled separately and on a case by case basis.

From a school's perspective it's not "just" a week though, e.g. if the teacher has planned a 3 week unit of writing differentiated 5 ways for the class of 30 with different outcomes based on ability, and you child misses week 2 of the writing cycle, they can't just come back and crack on with writing it, they've missed all the planning stage etc., so then as a teacher you have the impossible task of choosing between the children (high or low ability/just moved to the class and speak no English) who you've planned to support or using your time to catch up the child who's missed the schooling to sit on a beach for a week.
Multiply by 6 different subjects, 30 pupils in a class all taking 1 week off school = there is always someone taking up the time of the teacher and therefore taking them away from supporting other children desperately in need of that support.
Also, it is often the parents of children who've missed school for a holiday who then complain at parent's evening that their child hasn't made sufficient progress. It's also often the parents who least value education and therefore do the least reading/homework with their kid so therefore already have the children who are most academically behind who then say it's fine to take the kids on holiday during term time.

Well, it is not OK. It is actually pretty rude and entitled and as a teacher it pisses me off.

I disagree. Whilst SOME children's grades won't be affected, lots will and are all the time. Schools now have skeleton staffing structures, 20 years ago there was always a spare TA to plug gaps in learning, schools just can't afford that now. Any support staff are for SEN children with complex needs.

I think it's also the message to your own kids that you as a parent value education and prioritise school attendance, because it matters and you want your children to succeed. You want to instill resilience, punctuality, hard work and conscientiousness in them. You want them to fully commit to being part of a school community. My children know education is not optional/opt in/try but only when you can be bothered. You go, day in day out, you commit and you do your best. Then, in the HOLIDAYS you visit family etc. What sort of a message do you send to your kids if you say "well I'm fine, I missed school and I can still do x,y,z". You may be, but they might not be, the statistics suggest they won't be and why would you take that chance? And what sort of a work ethic are you exemplifying? Its like when kids miss the last week of summer term. Yes, we are doing no new learning then but we are bonding as a class, saying goodbye, having fun together and marking the transition into the next phase of their lives. It MATTERS.

I remember one child I taught whose dad's new partner lived in Thailand so they'd go for 2 weeks every 6 months. The child spent all the "holiday" apparently "having life experiences", well, her dad was, she was lonely and missed her friends. She should have been the top of her class but was struggling at the bottom middle section, because she would just find her feet and settled back into school routine then off they'd go again. She had less good friendships in class and missed a lot of parties etc too.

I think you don't need 4 weeks there - surely 3 is plenty and if you were cleber about it, it wouldn't meet the threshold for a penalty notoce.

I think all you are teaching children is that presenteeism matters rather than looking at life as a whole. Lots of experiences matter and are educational. Family time and nurturing those relationships is also important. 30/40 years ago there were no such be thing as TAs. And as someone in receipt of free meals I was quizzed by the school nurse as to whether my family took holidays. This was seen at the time as an important part of a child’s life/development.

15/20 years ago children in my son’s infants was taken out for a good part of the year so the family could travel around the world. The head/school supported that and held open their places, as they could see the value this would bring the children in terms of their experience and education.

That was just a few years ago, just before the government decided the most important thing was bums on seats, irrespective of the child, their health and their family.

Education has also become too rigid and too focussed solely on academics. It doesn’t consume the individual and no longer allows parents to. This rigid approach obviously doesn’t suit all children. Parents need to been given autonomy to parent as they are the only ones who can view their child as they are and know what’s best for them.

This hyperfocus on bums on seats regardless of the child’s attendance and performance in school is ridiculous and to the detriment of children, families and everyone in the school. It’s particularly damaging to non-academic children, children with SEN and disabled children, along with those otherwise struggling with the school environment.

We really need to take a step back and rethink our whole approach. Our whole culture now has an over focus on presenteeism and that is leading to stress, unhappiness and ill health in both children and adults in work (and the government wonder who anyone who can wants to retire in the 50s, it’s hardly surprising when work is so unpleasant and stressful for the majority - it did not used to be like this 15 odd years ago!!). Presenteeism is not a good thing and not something I would want to install as a value in my children. I would much rather they were happy, healthy and fulfilled in whatever they chose to do.

I think any reasonably well educated adult could manage to cover measures and time in an hour a day over 2 weeks.

Actually just by being out and about talking about for eg: train time tables or plans for the day and helping to cook.

@FWN1987
As pps have shown, you'll get a fine but nothing more.

Take them out and have a great time.
Those who have no cultural or family ties outside the UK cannot comprehend this so it's not worth asking.
Understanding oneself, culture, family ties etc is worth so much more than a few weeks in school. It's not even comparable, but the fact that many people truly feel that you should just "not go" or "go in the summer" to a country such as Pakistan, simply shows the level of ignorance on such matters.

If the school is not oversubscribed, deregister them before you go a d register them again when they get back

How patronising we are not all ignorant. What is ignorant is believing the rules don’t apply to you and you are special.

There are many strong multicultural communities in the UK, its not a barren monoculture!
Have you ever ventured to Wembley? Birmingham? Peckham?

Funny how when I was growing up we managed to see family during the school holidays in a country hotter than Pakistan!

I can understand you wanting to go for longer and use the opportunity to see everyone in one trip but in my experience (all relatives in a different country) you don’t need 4 weeks. You can see everyone in 2, at most 3 weeks.
If you want to spend time with them and get to know each other - 4 weeks are still not enough and won’t do the trick.