Passport application: why does the Home Office need to see foreign passports?

[SouthLondonDaddy]

Is it a big brother control thing? Do they want to monitor British citizens who are citizens of potentially, how shall I put it, “difficult” countries?

What I don’t understand is that they don’t ask if you are a citizen of another country, but require you to send any foreign passport you may hold. This makes the rule easy to game: destroy the passport of country X, tell country X you lost it, it becomes void, and you don’t have to send it to the Home Office. Then, once you get your new British passport, apply to country X for another shiny new passport… This also means the Home Office won’t see any visa stamps you may have had on that foreign passport – if that’s what they were interested in.

By contrast, if you have nothing to hide, and are not up to any dodgy etc, I’m not sure what the Home Office gains by looking at your foreign passport – yet you can’t travel till they return it, it’s a just headache if it gets lost, etc.

What an incredible fuss over nothing. You come across as absolutely paranoid
The Home Office is made up of many departments. HM Passport Office is a completely seperate section to UK Visas and Immigration. HM Passport Office is responsible to the General Register Office who also oversee the registration of births deaths and marriages
You are asked to present the foreign passport on which you entered the UK ( some people who were refugees may not have a passport)
It is another security check to confirm who you are. Not to damage or lose a foreign passport

In fact you do not have to send any documents to the Passport Office when applying for a passport.
You can use the Nationality and Passport checking service at your local council.
You make an appointment by telephone and at the appointment all your documents are checked and it is confirmed that you have the correct form and documents. Which are then photocopied and the originals including passports are returned to you at the end of the appointment.
You can travel and there is no need to apply for a new foreign passport.

There is nothing secretive about applying for a British passport as you can see it is very straight forward.

? I didn't say it's an unbearable intrusion by a police state, I said I wonder what the rationale is, especially because gaming the system seems all too easy.

The checking service offered by councils checks applications for naturalisation, ie for British citizenship, not applications for British passports.

The Post Office offers a check and send service, but AFAIK you still need to send your foreign passport.
The requirement to do so is explained very clearly on the gov.uk website.

Not sure what the rationale is, but I also had to show my UK passport when I was having my non-UK passport renewed at the embassy recently. So it's not just the UK.

May I ask what country?

When renewing a passport abroad, most consulates would require you to prove that you are in the host country legally, which means showing a visa or a passport of the host country. But that's a totally separate thing.

Eg if you are a Spanish or Italian or whatever citizen resident in the US and you apply through the consulate, you must show either a green card or a US passport. If you are in Spain or Italy, you don't.

It was an EU country. It was the first time I renewed that passport since getting a UK one, so I don't know if it's standard procedure, or only because I went through the embassy. Don't think it's to do with the legality of being in the country though, as it's in the EU, and there were no questions on the form about your right to reside.

FWIW, when I was living in my other country of nationality and applied for my first UK passport in 15 years, I had to send my non-UK passport off with the application, along with my expired (but not voided) navy blue childhood passport. I get the impression poshindevon isn't all too familiar with the joys headaches involved in being a dual citizen and/or having to apply for passports from outside the country I might be wrong, in which case I apologise!

TeachingPuffin
I am very familiar with immigration dual citizenship,British naturalisation and other matters thanks to my professional career in that sector. I also lived and worked abroad and am fully aware of how difficult it can be to obtain a passport from abroad
I explained clearly in my post why the Passport Office wants to see the foreign passport.
British Passport applications do not need to be posted. There are premium services and fast track services which can be used if you are in the UK.
This does not account for the OPs paranoia about Big Brother and the UK passport office losing or destroying foreign passports and this strange comment "gaming the system"

By the way the OPs original post reffered specifically to the UK Passport office and the processing of British passports.

I've renewed a British passport without giving or even showing my second nationality passport. I was living in a third country at the time and did have to show proof of legal residency via notarized residency card.

@globetrotter, you didn't, but you should have. The rules are explained very clearly on the gov.uk website
The fact that they didn't "catch you" and that it's not even clear what the penalties for not showing your second passport are (a fine? Nothing?) reinforces my point about what's the rationale.

@poshindevon, you can't admit you were wrong, can you? :)

No, you did not explain why the passport office wants to see foreign passports. Showing the foreign passport on which you entered the UK, which is what you said, may be relevant for applications for British citizens, but it is not relevant when someone who already is a citizen applies for a British passport!

Yes, there are more expensive fast track services, but the nationality checking service you mentioned checks citizenship applications, not passport applications.

My comment about gaming the system is that, if the rationale is to monitor what other nationalities are held by British citizens, and where they have travelled on their other passport, this can be easily gamed, as I said. If that's not the aim, I fail to understand what is.

Welcome to Brexit land.
Also, why shouldn't you provide proof of identity?

We renewed my DCs UK passports last year and we had to send a photocopy of their other nationality passport - every page of it, including cover, back and all pages including blank ones.
(they didn't ask for the other passport itself, just a full copy)

I don't understand OP.
You seem very paranoid and acting like there's some conspiracy.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit

It's a system that's been in place for ages - certainly before the referendum, here's a FOI request about it from 2014

www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/requirement_to_submit_foreign_pa

My guess is that it's a counter terrorist issue - a check to show there are not anomalies between 'identities' by verifying all such docs

@globetrotter, you didn't, but you should have.

Nope. I wasn't even asked for it. This was less than 2 years ago, but maybe the rules have changed.

Can you link to the guidelines please?

These were the guidelines I used. Just a photocopy was required.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/overseas-passport-supporting-documents-group-3

Oh dear, I just cannot seem to be able to explain myself, can I?

@MaisyPops: again, I am not saying it is an unbearable intrusion by a police state, I am simply wondering what the logic is. Does simply failing to understand what the logic is make me paranoid?

@gussyfinknottle, as others have pointed out, this has got nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit. It also has nothing whatsoever to do with proving your identity! If I already have a valid British passport which is about to expire and want a new British passport, I need to submit any foreign passport, even if the British one is more than enough to prove my identity.

@RoseAndRose, yes, I thought so, too (count-terrorism checks), but my scepticism is that that’s too easy to game: we are not asked what other nationalities we hold, or where we travelled on other passports, but simply to submit any current passport we may hold. Destroy or “lose” the foreign passport on which you, say, travelled to dodgy destinations, et voila, nothing to show, nothing to declare!!!

The FoI answer states that "is required to support identity and nationality checks. It
is also required to ensure that any British passport issued is compatible with the
biographical and photographic details contained in an existing passport. " which I don't find convincing at all.

@TanteRose, did you renew from the UK or from abroad?

@Globetrotter100 , yes, the rules for those applying from abroad are slightly different, and a photocopy of the foreign passport is all that’s needed. It wasn’t clear from your first post that you had, in fact, sent a photocopy as required.

The guidelines for those applying from the UK are here: www.gov.uk/government/publications/applying-for-a-passport
Page 12 of the PDF has a “table of supporting documents” which very clearly states that “Any other uncancelled passports relating to you” must be submitted in all cases: adult, child, first passport, renewal, etc. Page 5 explicitly clarifies that “uncancelled passports” includes “passports issued to you by other countries.” When I called to inquire, the passport office said that they would only accept a certified copy (not a photocopy made my me) in exceptional cases, like the clearly documented need to travel on the foreign passport for some urgent matter, and, even then, it would be up to the discretion of the case officer reviewing the application.

Ok, the Brexit ref was just a jibe. But as a soon to be holder of another country's passport myself, I see no reason to complain.
It says in your UK passport that holding such a passport does not exempt you from e.g national service in the other country.
What do you think the Border Agency will do with the knowledge you have dual citizenship? Most on here have said you just send a photocopy, not even a notarised one.
If they are making an exception for you specifically or your other nationality, speak to your MP if it bothers you that much.

If you apply from abroad you can send a photocopy, if applying from the UK you need to send the foreign passport.

I think there should be more transparency on what data they are obtaining here. It’s not relevant to passport entitlement (unlike say birth certificates etc) so why do they want it? Ps before anyone calls me paranoid, I’m not worried about it, just interested.

I don’t understand why dual nationals require more identity checks than non-dual citizens who aren’t required to provide a second form of Id to support their application. Does foreign citizenship affect U.K. citizenship eligibility? Also surely that wouldn’t be relevant for renewals where British nationality has already been established.

Complain to the Information Commissioner if you think they are collecting more info than they need.
Word to the wise, minimise the paranoia when you do.

"If I already have a valid British passport which is about to expire and want a new British passport, I need to submit any foreign passport, even if the British one is more than enough to prove my identity."

When my 17yr-old recently applied for his first passport, he had to send my (British) passport with his application form. He then received a letter to say that this wasn't enough proof of my identity and that he also needed to send a copy of my full birth certificate.

So my passport isn't enough proof of identity, but the birth certificate that anyone could order online is.

I understand the need to tighten things up for security but the methods don't always make sense.

I agree I can't see why it's necessary but it is certainly a pain in the neck, particularly if you live abroad. If you have two passports it's much better to be able to hold onto one in case you need to travel. What is more of a pain is that if you live abroad everything now has to be in done in the U.K. - you can no longer go to an embassy or consulate. So by post it takes 4 weeks to renew a passport.

Family members who live abroad - far away! - and are dual citizens, renewed their British passports by post but retained the passports of their dual country where they were living, so that they could travel if needed. Not sure if this was before the rules changed.

I am a British citizen living in mainland Europe and last year was thinking of renewing my passport by post. To travel during this time you have to get an 'emergency travel document'. Luckily I didn't do it as my father suddenly became very ill and died. I heard the news on Saturday morning and was on a flight on Saturday afternoon. He died on Sunday morning. I cannot imagine how hard it would have been to get an emergency travel document on a Saturday - there is just no way I would have made it to see my dad before he died. I renewed my passport in person on a later trip to the U.K. - expensive but worth it. I handed in the paperwork at 1pm and had my new passport by 5pm.

I don't really think it is a conspiracy but it is a bit a Big Brother-ish - surely the details and a copy of your foreign passport would achieve the same goal? Would be nice if the system was rethought so that people could still travel if needed.

It is purely used as proof of identity. I had this when renewing a child's British passport recently - they wanted their other nationality passport (which was also expired). I called the Passport office and asked and the lady said it is because it is a valid form of ID. They aren't collecting any other info. Actually I never sent it (as expired) and DCs new British passport arrived without an issue a week later. I do think you are worrying needlessly.

I don’t understand why dual nationals require more identity checks than non-dual citizens who aren’t required to provide a second form of Id to support their application

But wouldn't it be remiss if you said you held another passport and they didn't check they both had the same details e.g. name, dob, birthplace etc?