Passport application: why does the Home Office need to see foreign passports?

[SouthLondonDaddy]

Is it a big brother control thing? Do they want to monitor British citizens who are citizens of potentially, how shall I put it, “difficult” countries?

What I don’t understand is that they don’t ask if you are a citizen of another country, but require you to send any foreign passport you may hold. This makes the rule easy to game: destroy the passport of country X, tell country X you lost it, it becomes void, and you don’t have to send it to the Home Office. Then, once you get your new British passport, apply to country X for another shiny new passport… This also means the Home Office won’t see any visa stamps you may have had on that foreign passport – if that’s what they were interested in.

By contrast, if you have nothing to hide, and are not up to any dodgy etc, I’m not sure what the Home Office gains by looking at your foreign passport – yet you can’t travel till they return it, it’s a just headache if it gets lost, etc.

OP, I clearly said in my first response to your post, that the foreign passport was taken as
"It is another security check to confirm who you are"
cacofonix explained in more detail

As for the checking service please look at the GOV.UK Nationality checking service and you will see it clearly states:-
Nationality checking service provided by local authorities to check UK applications for British citizenship and British passports
By using the word "gamed" in this context you are stating that the Passport Office is acting in an unfair or unscrupulous manner.
You obviously feel strongly about this, so I suggest you make a complaint to HM Passport Office
This can be done by telephone, email or in writing.

@Cacofonix, @gussyfinknottle, I am not worrying. In fact, I wouldn’t be worried if the Home Office collected data on British citizens with dual nationality, and where they travel to – I’d be worried if they didn’t! I am simply saying that I don’t understand the logic, because, if it’s meant to collect this data, it’s useless as the rules are too easy to game; if the purpose is another, I don’t understand what it is.

I seem to speak a different language to most posters as I am evidently failing to make myself understood: my objection is not that the Home Office is collecting data it shouldn’t, but that the rule is stupid and nonsensical because it’s too easy to game!

The reason that the foreign passport is another form of ID is not a convincing argument; take two British citizens who need to renew their British passport. Their claim to British nationality is already proven by their holding a British passport. Why on Earth does the dual citizen need to provide an additional proof of identity (the foreign passport), while the non-dual citizen doesn’t?

@Doofenschmirtz Was your 17-year old born outside the UK? If yes, I understand they need your birth certificate to verify if your child is entitled to British citizenship. For example, if your parents are British born in the UK, you are British born abroad, then your child is not automatically British if born abroad.
If instead your child was born in the UK, then I agree I don’t understand why your birth certificate was required – it shouldn’t have been according to the official guidelines in the pdf I linked.

@Poshindevon, we really speak two different languages, don't we?

I said the rules can be gamed by applicants who don't want to show the Home Office their foreign passport! I never accused the Passport Office of gaming anything!

Also, AFAIK councils used to offer a checking service for those applying for British citizenship and for a British passport at the same time; this was discontinued in January 2018 - as this London borough explains here: www.southwark.gov.uk/births-deaths-marriage-and-citizenship/immigration-and-citizenship/nationality-checking-service-ncs?chapter=3

AFAIK councils never offered the checking service to British citizens who apply for a British passport. Indeed, the gov.uk website mentions you can apply for a passport online, using the post office check and send service, or (for a fee) at local passport offices if you are in a rush and need a fast track service - no mention of applying through local councils. Am I mistaken? Do you know differently? Could you please elaborate?

OP when you say 'game' you really mean 'play' .

OP isn't talking about UK passport office losing foreign passports. She is talking about applicants playing the system.

Yes it would be easy for someone to pretend to lose their foreign passport, get a UK passport, then renew their foreign passport. And this would mean the UK passport office didn't see their visa stamps. So if someone was dodgy, yes they might do this.

Renewed them from overseas, SouthLD

@ParadiseCity, precisely! If you used your American passport to visit your grandparents in New York, why would you want to hide it? But, equally, the Home Office is unlikely to be particularly interested in that piece of information. If instead you used a foreign passport to, I don't know, travel to Turkey then Syria, then the Home Office will probably want to know, but you can simply "lose" or destroy the foreign passport!

That's why I think the rule doesn't make sense: it monitors only those who shouldn't be monitored, while those who should can very easily avoid it. It is an annoyance for those who have nothing to hide, and is irrelevant for those who do, who can just "lose" their passport.

If instead the true purpose is proof of ID, again, I am totally speechless on why on Earth a dual citizen would need to provide an additional proof of ID.

Like I said, if you think that Border Control is collecting unnecessary information about you, complain to the Information Commissioner. That's her job to look at stuff like that. We have whisper it because it came from the EU laws on excessive collection of personal information.
But lay off the This is Big Brother paranoia stuff when you complain.

@gussyfinknottle , is your first language English? Has anything been unclear in what I have said?

I don't know how else to say that I am not worried about the collection of too much information. I am simply saying the rule seems stupid, for the reasons I mentioned. I am not going to repeat it - if people want to keep repeating this point there's nothing I can do.

Also, again, EU laws have nothing to do with it. Most EU countries do not need to see your foreign passports.

My first language is English, op. You have wittered on about the Border Agency unnecessary collection of your personal information (the passport) and unnecessary requirement for yet more ID (your passport). I have explained the remedy. You seem not to want to hear it.

What part of " I am not worried about the collection of too much information" is unclear and could possibly be interpreted as me having "wittered on about the Border Agency unnecessary collection of your personal information"?

Sorry I didn't realise you just wanted to rant and not pay attention to advice. Happy travels.

But presumably the ID requirements are the same for dual nationals and non-dual nationals, why the extra requirement for dual nationals - if the other methods of identification are not sufficient for us, then surely everyone should show an extra form of ID?

I have no problem sending them my other passport btw, I’m just surprised they request it.

I never sent them because they were all expired. I didn’t think the question is relevant to expired passports? I don’t really understand it.

@AutoFilled, it applies only to current, non-voided, non-expired passports.

I created an account solely to say that SouthLondonDaddy was not being unreasonable at all with his question at all. I have no idea why it sparked aggressive and obtuse responses from a selection of other posters.

It's totally illogical that the Foreign Office require dual citizens to send in originals of their other nationality passports. If it was for security (which I doubt - what's the point of looking at someone's passport once every 10 years), as SLD pointed out there's an easy way around it. If it's for ID, then why aren't sole nationality holders required to provide another form of ID. It would make much more sense for the department to only require a photocopy, as they already accept for people who happen to be applying outside of the country.

As it is, the policy makes no logical sense and is just a restrictive burden. But that's life I guess. I think I will write a complaint.

Sorry to post on an old thread but i was wondering this same thing. It's annoying that to renew my dc British passports I have to send their foreign passpprts too. I mean they're kids so have obvs nor been up to anything dodgy.

I renewed DS’ passport online about a month ago. I declared that he had another passport, but there was nothing saying that he had to send it in this time so I didn’t. His U.K. passport was renewed no problem.

Years and years ago, back when I also had two passports I had sent both in for the U.K. renewal when I had news that my mother’s death was imminent. In a panic I phoned to try to get the US passport back (with the idea that I would fly over on it and DH would post the new U.K. passport to me) and they told me that despite what the form said , there was actually no need to send my US passport in!

Further to the message posted by @Cacofonix on 07 March 2018 at 13:28:49 I would like to add that the issue is not verification by the passports office as this has already been confirmed when issued with the British Nationality. If it was just to confirm that you have another passport that wouldnt be an issue but the problem is that they enter country X passport details under the notes section of your British passport which in my opinion is discriminatory and somehow makes you appear as a second grade citizen. Further, why should it be public information for all to see including HR persons and immigration officers of all the countries that you visit including your country X

her countries including Europe and the US do not post passport details of their citizens who hold dual citizenship in their passports. I am sure this cannot be right and am sure could result in citizens being exposed to unsafe conditions. Has the UK passport office considered this and has it not been objected to by the EU since we are still part of the EU.

"the problem is that they enter country X passport details under the notes section of your British passport"

Really? Could you please elaborate? The British Passport Office wrote the details of your other passport in the notes section of your British one?? Did you complain?

This has not happened to me, neither to any of the dual nationals I know of, including dual nationals of countries whose citizens do not enjoy the same visa-free perks of Brits. E.g. I know a dual British - Iranian citizen who tries to avoid travelling to the US for work because, every time he goes, he is treated like a terrorist or a potential illegal immigrant (because, sure, a medical doctor holding a senior role in an important London hospital would give that up to become an illegal, what?, waiter? in the US...). But that's because the US require you to disclose if you hold other citizenships, not because it's reported in the British passport.

In fact, it's not widely advertised, but many countries, including the UK, let you hold TWO passports. This is only granted in extreme cases, where you need to visit two countries which hate each other, and you could get into trouble if country A saw a stamp of country B or viceversa.

I renewed my passport earlier this year and had to send a photocopy of my other passport. I am in China so my passport is not sent to the UK to be renewed just a verified copy from the visa centre in Shanghai, but they did want a copy of every page of my US passport too.
There is nothing in the notes section of my UK passport to state that I also have citizenship of another country.

It’s proof of identity
It is also to record you as a dual/multinational because say you are a U.K. and Iranian citizen. You live in the U.K. You go on vacation to Iran and are arrested as a spy and tossed in prison. Because you are a citizen of Iran, the British embassy can do NOTHING to help you according to international law. They have to have on record positive proof you are a citizen of Iran (not a tick box on a form but having seen and checked your Iranian passport as legit).

That’s why that U.K.- Iranian lady Nasserin? Is still stuck in Iran after two years.

It’s also security. Vast majority of passports are chipped. Your countries of citizenship want to be able to track you no matter which passport you travel on. So by having all your active passports, they can ghost the chip(s) and do the Interpol paperwork so that all you countries of citizenship can track all your travels.
It’s essential for espionage and counter espionage, counter internal criminals/gangs, etc

What do you mean ghosting the chip? The chips don't store where you have travelled, AFAIK.

I wouldn't be surprised if MI5 tracked the movements of dual citizens. But passports are renewed every 10 years. It's all too easy to 'lose' your non British passport just when you have to renew your British one.

The Iranian example is nonsense. What matters for whether you can get consular assistance is whether you are a citizen of that country, not whether you hold a valid and current passport. So I could be an Iranian citizen, but if I renew my British passport while my Iranian one is expired, I don't have to submit any Iranian document to the Home Office, nor tell them I even have Iranian citizenship.

Proof of identity is also nonsense. Why on Earth would dual citizens need to submit more proof than non dual citizens????

Well said, SouthLondonDaddy!