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UK passports and no exit border checks: child abduction all too easy?

69 replies

SouthLondonDaddy · 30/08/2017 11:05

Being recently questioned at Gatwick because our daughter looked nothing like her passport photo, taken when she was just a few weeks old (www.mumsnet.com/Talk/general_advice_tips/3019919-Child-unrecognisable-from-passport-photo?watched=1 ) got me thinking that British passports and the lack of border checks when leaving the UK potentially make child abduction all too easy, especially compared to what happens in many other countries.

A 5-year passport for infants is too long a period; in many other countries it’s 2 or 3. I joked with my wife that I could basically snatch any child the same age as our daughter and travel abroad with her on our daughter’s passport.

One parent can obtain a passport without the other parent’s knowledge or consent; this is just wrong – it makes it all too easy for one parent to take a child abroad without the other parent’s consent. Again, many other countries require the consent of both parents. Clearly this doesn’t solve the issue of what happens when two parents initially agree to the passport, then become estranged and one tries to take a child abroad without the other parent’s consent.

There are no passport controls when leaving the country. This is very different from many other countries (eg all the Schengen area, ie most of the EU), where immigration officers check passports both when entering and leaving the country. If I tried to take a child from London to Paris, it would be up to the airline to stop me. If I tried to take a child from Paris to London, I’d have to go through French immigration control.

British passports do not report the names of the parents. Simply having the same surname does not prove anything, just like not having it doesn’t mean much (think of all the mothers who don’t change their surname). We always carry a copy of our daughter’s birth certificate, but, to be fair, that piece of paper with no pictures is all too easy to fake! Why don’t British passports report the names of the parents? This is what happens in many other countries. Printing two more lines on a passport, like many other countries do, is a very easy and inexpensive solution. And of course faking a passport is much harder than faking a birth certificate. There was a petition to do this ( petition.parliament.uk/archived/petitions/55636 ) but it failed.

Thoughts?

OP posts:
PerfumeIsAMessage · 01/09/2017 10:37

You are checked without you knowing so many times when leaving the UK you wouldn't believe it. API details, the check in desks...and they are the "visible" ones.
Children travelling in or out of the UK with one parent only have been the subject of extra scrutiny since at least the early 90s.
The UK is still probably one if the hardest places to abduct a child from. At least if you intend to do it via an airport.

PerfumeIsAMessage · 01/09/2017 10:39

British ppts information that you don't see (but which is held on file) has parental details and information as to how that person has British citizenship.

TsunamiOfShit · 01/09/2017 10:43

You are checked without you knowing so many times when leaving the UK you wouldn't believe it. API details, the check in desks...and they are the "visible" ones.
Children travelling in or out of the UK with one parent only have been the subject of extra scrutiny since at least the early 90s.
The UK is still probably one if the hardest places to abduct a child from. At least if you intend to do it via an airport.

Not necessarily true. My mum has flown out of the country several times with my DC, not only have my mum got a different surname from my DC, but also a different nationality. She has only been questioned when entering the UK and on those occasions it has only been immigration asking my DC if she is really his nan. No documents have been required.

JigglyTuff · 01/09/2017 10:48

Your mum has flown with your children and hasn't been through security, check in, passport control or a boarding gate tsunami?

Hmm
PerfumeIsAMessage · 01/09/2017 11:09

Special scrutiny doesn't necessarily mean the bit where the hearty fella on the desk says "and who's this then Junior? Is this your nan?"

SouthLondonDaddy · 01/09/2017 11:35

British ppts information that you don't see (but which is held on file) has parental details

Why do you say this? May I ask what your source is?

My experience is that this is not true.

About a year ago, my wife was flying back to London with our child, then about 1, but without me - I was waiting for them at the arrivals in Stansted. My wife was told off by immigration officials because, with a different surname and no birth certificate, they couldn't be sure she was, in fact, the mother of the child, and the child was too little to even ask her "is this your mummy?". Had parental details really been on file, they would not have asked the question. A quick google search reveals quite a few newspaper articles about mothers, without the same surname as their children, encountering the very same problem.

I was in the arrival hall, but immigration officers did not call me to verify anything. So, in practice, they had no way of being 100% sure that my wife was, in fact, DD's mother. In theory she could have smuggled a child she did not have parental responsibility for into the UK.

Since then, we have always travelled with DD's birth certificate, although, as I said, it would be all too easy to fake - just a black and white printout on ordinary paper, no photos, no special paper, no holograms, nothing.

Note that having the same surname does not guarantee much. How many Smith Baker Khan Patel etc are there in this country?

I genuinely do not understand why parents' names are not printed on children's passports. It's so easy, effective and inexpensive.

OP posts:
TsunamiOfShit · 01/09/2017 11:36

Your mum has flown with your children and hasn't been through security, check in, passport control or a boarding gate tsunami?

That's not what I said, please re-read. I said no checks have been carried out to see whether the child she is travelling with is allowed to leave the country with her.

And no, they've not been through passport control when leaving the UK, only when arriving at the destination.

JigglyTuff · 01/09/2017 11:50

Oh sorry, I misread. They do check your passport at all those points though - they may not be checked by passport control in front of you but they're checking behind the scenes.

grandOlejukeofYork · 01/09/2017 11:53

I said no checks have been carried out to see whether the child she is travelling with is allowed to leave the country with her

Why would there be? Are people seriously suggesting that every child at an airport is checked up on to see if they are being abducted? What kind of checks are you suggesting?

PerfumeIsAMessage · 01/09/2017 11:57

There absolutely should be (and are, to a certain extent) checks put into place to make sure a child is not being abducted. It's notoriously difficult to get a child back in the case of parental abduction for example.
It doesn't take much. Letter of consent from the non-travelling parent(s) suffices for most borders.

grandOlejukeofYork · 01/09/2017 11:57

It doesn't take much. Letter of consent from the non-travelling parent(s) suffices for most borders

which anybody could print off and sign in anyone else name. So no use of any kind.

RicottaPancakes · 01/09/2017 11:58

How are they checking behind the scenes when my passport is still in my pocket?

juneau · 01/09/2017 12:02

Every time we travel now I have to fill in APD information (advance passenger directive), for the airline. And our passports are checked at least once, when both leaving and entering the UK (and any other nation). When I used to travel sometimes alone with our DS when he was a baby and we lived overseas I was ALWAYS asked where his dad was, when he was joining us, where we lived, etc. I could see that the agent questioning me was watching my body language for any signs of nervousness or shiftiness. So, tbh, I'm not sure what you're talking about!

CoteDAzur · 01/09/2017 12:02

"One parent can obtain a passport without the other parent’s knowledge or consent"

We have demanded passports from 3 countries for our DC and close relatives have demanded passports for another, and this is not true for any of those 4 countries.

Is it really possible for 1 parent to get a passport for DC in the UK?

PerfumeIsAMessage · 01/09/2017 12:03

API
At the desk when the check in assistant does that typing thing on her computer.
Absolutely the letter could be forged. I'm always forgetting to get dp to sign ours and doing it myself, but it's something.
I personally wouldn't mind having the system in other countries where your letter has to be notarised and your docs validated.

juneau · 01/09/2017 12:04

I do, however, agree with you on this: I genuinely do not understand why parents' names are not printed on children's passports. It's so easy, effective and inexpensive.

PerfumeIsAMessage · 01/09/2017 12:05

Only if the parent making the request has sole custody Cote and even then it has to be proven - no good just stating "father's whereabouts unknown" etc.

grandOlejukeofYork · 01/09/2017 12:09

Either parent can apply for a passport for their child, unless an objection has been lodged at a United Kingdom Identity and Passport Service office

It's not true in most countries but it is in the UK.

dertyyuoih2 · 01/09/2017 12:10

You can renew a passport for a DC as a parent as long as you have the other persons passport number. So this is possible really for one parent to get a passport out.

My DCs passport we got when he was three weeks old, safe to safe even a few months later and now 2.5 years later he looks nothing like that child either!!
Anyone can quite easily take another child out of the country as at that age they are too young to tell you what their name is etc.

I do think passports should have shorter periods on them for young people, but renewals should be faster and easier if they do this ( slow process)

JigglyTuff · 01/09/2017 12:11

Only if the dad is on the birth certificate Perfume - if there is no dad on there, you don't get questioned (well I never have been)

BertieBotts · 01/09/2017 12:12

Yes it is which is useful in my case as my ex hasn't had anything to do with DS for six years yet likes to refuse permission for stuff that wouldn't affect him in the slightest just on principle.

If your child has been abducted I assume you'd notice in which case youd notify the police who put a call out to border control.

grandOlejukeofYork · 01/09/2017 12:13

If your child has been abducted I assume you'd notice in which case youd notify the police who put a call out to border control

exactly this. Why would you need to run checks on millions of kids on the off chance a child was abducted and nobody noticed or put out an apb?

PerfumeIsAMessage · 01/09/2017 12:14

Apply for a passport doesn't mean getting one GrandOle.
Oh yes, of course Jiggly- obviously if there has never been any kind of custody then they wouldn't suddenly go looking for the father to ask.

SouthLondonDaddy · 01/09/2017 12:15

^You are checked without you knowing so many times when leaving the UK you wouldn't believe it. API details, the check in desks...and they are the "visible" ones.
Children travelling in or out of the UK with one parent only have been the subject of extra scrutiny since at least the early 90s.
The UK is still probably one if the hardest places to abduct a child from. At least if you intend to do it via an airport.^

I wholeheartedly disagree. I’m not very familiar with the system in non-European countries, but let’s for a moment compare flying out of the UK with flying out of a EU Schengen country, i.e. (at the time of writing) all of the EU except Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Ireland, Romania and of course the UK.

Exit border checks. They exists in the Schengen area, but not in the UK. There is no Border Agency official checking the documents of those flying from London to Madrid or New York. Yes, you have to submit API details, details of the passport or ID cards of each passenger, but none of this proves who has parental responsibility for the child, nor the relationship between an adult and a child travelling together.
I have no doubt there are a lot of ‘invisible’ checks, but I imagine these would catch people like suspects or convicts trying to flee the country – again, nothing to do with checking who has parental responsibility for a minor.
Without official border checks, checks are left to the airline. Easyjet has a description here: www.easyjet.com/en/terms-and-conditions/infants-and-children It lists specific ID requirements, including in most cases some sort of authorisation from those with parental responsibility, for Czech, Spanish, French, Portuguese, Romanian and Italian children – not for British ones.
Airlines tend to check passports, but, again, they tend not to perform any checks whatsoever on whether the adult can take the child abroad, at least not when it comes to British children (see above). When my wife took DD abroad (with my knowledge, of course!) Easyjet staff checked both their passports, period. DD was very little and sleeping. They have different surnames. Easyjet had no way whatsoever of knowing that my wife was, in fact, the mother.

Obtaining the passport It is crazy that the authorisation of just one parent is enough. The authorisation of both might be needed for unmarried parents, not sure, but it certainly wasn’t needed in our case (we are married). One of us could have obtained DD’s passport without the other parent’s consent nor knowledge and taken DD abroad. Only some countries have specific extradition agreements with the UK; if I had been, say, Russian and taken DD to Russia because I wanted to leave my wife, the chances of extraditing me and bringing DD back to the UK would have been slim to say the least.

Btw, the Foreign Office has some statistics on international child abduction: www.gov.uk/government/news/new-fco-figures-show-parental-child-abduction-cases-on-the-rise
The lack of exit border checks is particularly worrying in those cases when a parent has ties to another country, and could give a child a passport of that country. You can get a court order asking the UK Passport Office not to issue a passport to your child, but foreign consulates are under no obligation to respect it. This is particularly worrying in those cases where just one parent can obtain a passport, without the other’s consent.

Of course all these points would make no difference whatsoever to those cases where an abduction takes place after a holiday abroad both parents had consented to (eg taking the child to visit relatives in country X, then keeping him/her there), but still, I couldn’t disagree more that the UK is one of the hardest places to abduct a child from.

To be clear, my wife and I are not separating, nor do we have any reason to fear that the other would abduct DD! We were simply both quite shocked at how easy child abduction can potentially be in the UK.

OP posts:
grandOlejukeofYork · 01/09/2017 12:16

Apply for a passport doesn't mean getting one GrandOle

Usually it means exactly that, actually. You apply for one and they send it to you.

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