North American mumsnetters - and those who've lived there

[Gem13]

We have the possibility of moving to either the US or Canada with DH's work in the next few months. He would be based at home with work trips to various offices all over the US and Canada.

So... we would have to choose where to live. The question is where? Ideally it would be East Coast as we could get back to see family and friends fairly easily (both sets of parents are in their 70s which is a consideration) but San Francisco and Vancouver appeal.

I want to be pretty central so that I could walk with the children (3 and nearly 2) to activities during the day, meet people, watch people, shop, etc. - feel a part of things. I don't want to end up in somewhere like Phoenix in a suburb with strip malls as 'town'. Another factor is that if DH is away for a couple of days a week I don't want to feel isolated.

At the moment I'm considering places near DC (Alexandria, Georgetown), Boston (though I know nothing about it), Toronto, New York city (stayed in Manhattan for a month but would Brooklyn or others suit?), Montreal (know nothing and our French is poor).

Any suggestions or recommendations?

Bumping for those in a different time zone...

I'm Canadian and think you can't go wrong living in Toronto. It's a great city. Another plus to living in Canada is the whole health care issue - it's socialised medicine much like the UK. Only I think the Canadian system is better (or at least it was when I lived there) in that waiting lists aren't as long etc etc.

Housing is expensive in Toronto though so I suppose you'd need to look into what your budget is and what it would buy you in all the cities you've listed.

Good luck! I wish I was moving back home!

Thanks for that Amanda. It's difficult to work housing costs out as we would rent. Without knowing the cities it's difficult to search on the net for rental costs without defining the areas. Could you name some 'good' areas in Toronto?

Interesting about the healthcare - we're hoping to have another baby while we are there - wherever 'there' may be!

I'm Canadian, and think both Toronto and Montreal would work, although the weather is hard. Montreal is cheaper and socially more friendly, in my experience, but the weather is colder, and the language thing will be an issue.

Will you have loads of cash? It makes a difference. I think Montreal is easier poor, but Toronto might be easier with money.

Oh, and how long would you be living there? The education system in Montreal is tricky, unless you want your kids educated in French.

I find the system better in some ways, worse in others. I think it's easier to "play" the system there, so if you know what you're doing, you can get better medical care. But having a GP is non-standard there, you can just see different people in different offices all the time, which is a bit rubbish.

Oh, for rental, Montreal is a lot better + cheaper.

As to where you'd want to be ... in Toronto, maybe the Beaches? Cabbagetown? Or you could go for Dundas West Village? (closer to the airport) Oh, or the Annex?

In Montreal, I guess your options would be NDG, or maybe Outremont? Harder to get a house, for rent or sale, in central Montreal, but there are huge lovely flats.

Both cities have good public transit.

Thanks NQC. I like the idea of Montreal as I would have to make an effort, more of an adventure/challenge but I'm concerned it would be a huge effort and with 2 (or 3) little ones it might be too much. Cold and translating the whole time... probably not. I wouldn't mind the children learning another language though. I'm hoping they would get some Spanish or French tuition from this move through pre-school/elementary.

I have been reading about Cabbagetown and the Beaches but not Dundas West village - shall look that up now.

I grew up in Canada,in a town called Dundas about an hour west of Toronto.Great schools if thats a factor,very family orientated.Westdale area of nearby Hamilton is fab area for families,great houses,university area,good shops,cafes within walking distance.Great hospital aswell.As far as I know and my family are all still there you do have a gp similar to here.Health service is great but don't expect a midwife or HV to visit you at home before or after the birth.They do have midwives though

Gem13, in pretty much all of Montreal, everyone speaks English just fine. And as long as you make a (token) effort to speak French, everyone will speak English to you, just fine.

And the bits I'm recommending are largely English, anyway. Or at least significantly so.

Montreal is really lovely. Great food, lots of fun. DS1 really loved it there this summer, there was a big play-fight activity thing (for adults/teenagers) on the side of the mountain on Sundays. I think it was his absolutely favourite thing there.

If you live reasonably centrally, lots of streets have alleys between the major streets. People let their kids play out in the alleys (when they're a bit bigger than yours, I think?), and can watch them playing, from their balconies or kitchens. It's a really lovely part of Montreal life.

Toronto is good, too, it's just a bit more moneyed, generally. If you can afford to live in the Annex (oh! or near Dufferin Grove Park! Which is absolutely absolutely lovely, and will give you instant community. Also, cheaper than the Annex. I'd want to be east of the park, not west though.) then you will be fine.

Craigslist is a good place to look for sublets and so on, if you'll want somewhere temporary. The rental market in Toronto is brutal and horrible, it's a bit easier in Montreal.

Gem13, in pretty much all of Montreal, everyone speaks English just fine. And as long as you make a (token) effort to speak French, everyone will speak English to you, just fine.

And the bits I'm recommending are largely English, anyway. Or at least significantly so.

Montreal is really lovely. Great food, lots of fun. DS1 really loved it there this summer, there was a big play-fight activity thing (for adults/teenagers) on the side of the mountain on Sundays. I think it was his absolutely favourite thing there.

If you live reasonably centrally, lots of streets have alleys between the major streets. People let their kids play out in the alleys (when they're a bit bigger than yours, I think?), and can watch them playing, from their balconies or kitchens. It's a really lovely part of Montreal life.

Toronto is good, too, it's just a bit more moneyed, generally. If you can afford to live in the Annex (oh! or near Dufferin Grove Park! Which is absolutely absolutely lovely, and will give you instant community. Also, cheaper than the Annex. I'd want to be east of the park, not west though.) then you will be fine.

Craigslist is a good place to look for sublets and so on, if you'll want somewhere temporary. The rental market in Toronto is brutal and horrible, it's a bit easier in Montreal.

Oh, I don't know much about America, but I do think it would be more of a culture shock than Canada would be ...

How exciting gem13! I have lived in Los Angeles and in NY and have family/friends across Canada. I would say the DC area is great if you can afford the nicer areas (I have a friend who used to live in MacLean, VA and now lives nr Georgetown, both lovely). Vancouver is lovely, esp if you like the outdoor lifestyle and want to sail/ski but if that's not your thing, it's probably not the ideal place. Toronto is wonderful, esp if you live out along the lakefront, like being at the beach. Do remember how bitter the weather can be all across Canada - winters there are not for the faint-hearted. NY, or Manhattan at least is hysterically expensive to live in, rents are phenomenal, if the cost of my shoebox in a crappy area of town is anything to go by. If you are considering the West Coast, one place I fell in love with and that would tick your boxes is Seattle - just gorgeous, quirky and full of character. Dh always raves about Boston too, although I don't know it at all and I think it's also v. expensive. Hope this helps.

Although I can not say much about Canada in particular (I loved it as a student but not lived there long enough as to know which area is better, nicer, cheaper, etc), my only recommendation for you, from the point of view of an expat, is to learn the language before you go or chose a place where your own is spoken.

I came here with a pretty good level of English, but have seen so many marriages that went into crisis or plainly divorced after the wife was subject to the isolation that not knowing the language involves. The problem is that your DH will be busy at his work, will continue to meet interesant people and travel, while you will have to deal with the day to day from a slightly more grim perspective: it is difficult to function properly and to adapt to a place when you understand only half of what is said, it's difficult to find a job, difficult to get involved in social activities, or worse than that, trying to explain to the doctor what is wrong with one of your children.

So, if you choose Montreal get into some good one to one French classes ASAP

Chandra, Montreal is a bilingual city. And the areas I'm pointing gem13 at are English ones.

And learning a bit of French here will (frankly) just confuse her when she gets there anyway (well, it will help with reading things). The accent is very different from the imaginary Ile de France accent you get on courses. It would be like learning a bit of RP English, and then moving to Brooklyn. Or Aberdeen.

So is BArcelona, but you can't expect the locals to keep translating to Spanish for you all the time, they forget or get tired.

I don't know Barcelona. I do know Montreal. Montreal has had an English community for hundreds of years. There are people born in Montreal, who live there all their lives, without speaking good French (ok, they're also weird, but I'm just saying).

Probably picking up some French is a good idea, but also being ready for a quite-different accent when you get there (e.g. maybe listening to Quebecois radio online?) would be wise.

I'm not talking about MOntreal, I'm just talking, as I specified in my first post, about one of the genaralities about being an expat.

BOSTON is deffo brill esp if you don't want to drive

Very easy to walk around

Look up OAKVILLE just outside Toronto on the coast of lake ontario

lovely shops and cafes and parks easy drive to toronto/airport and nigaraa falls

loads for children to do

have a look around this site and its links

NQC, I always had a GP back home, always. The same from from being about 6 till I left to move here. That said, if I was working or at uni and couldn't get to see my GP there were walk in clinics for things that couldn't wait. Maybe that's changed in recent years, I don't know, but what a loss if it has.

Gem13, I'll ask my friends who are living in toronto for family friendly areas.

Kingston, Vancouver or Toronto. Deffo. My grandfather travelled all over the world & said Toronto was his favourite city in the world, best organised, etc.

minneapolis. airport hub. gorgeous green areas and lakes. fantastic shopping (mall of america for every chain ever and quirky shops in centre). culturally very active - great (but affordable) theatre, music, museums, galleries. nice compact centre with street entertainment in summer. Very family friendly. gorgeous housing stock with nice american space. democrat, no death penalty (not that I'm suggesting you'll be up for it, but it makes a difference), but also relatively low crime rate. relatively inexpensive cost of living. Bloody cold in winter, mind.

don't go to nyc if your dh needs to fly a lot, he will be very very sick of being in traffic and you'll be sick of him being so late home.

Is £ (or $) and visa requirements no object?

People we've known living Toronto way mainly lived out in Mississauga but they were young w/o families, although lived in houses, not apartments. Coincidentally DH's best mate and my cousin ended up both living there within a ocuple of km.

Canadian friend who learnt French in Quebec got laughed out of the Sorbonne when she went to study there

yes mississauga has deffo brill shopping malls and is very near airport

would deffo brill prefer oakville just about 20 mins away but much prettier

IMHO