Was Anne Boleyn Innocent?

[TheNightScentedStock]

I'm not entirely sure.

It must have been so tempting to try and have a child. She knew it was out of the question with Henry and also knew that she was in danger of losing him.

A child, a son, would have secured her safety and destiny.

It would have been dangerous but maybe worth the risk.

That sounds fascinating.

So I really don’t have a clue about much of the Tudor life but have just watched six wives with Lucy Worsley and wondered if this was a true reflection of what was going on?

Their understanding of biology was a bit different to ours.

Henry wanted evidence of adultery so he could rid himself of her, he had the next one lined up already. A ruthless man.

I think they knew that babies came from PIV sex though!

Not disagreeing with that at all but just because he was prepared to make it up, doesn't exclude the fact that she might have done in desperate circumstances.

I think she knew he was going to get rid of her and it would have been normal to wish for a son, a son that could save her.

She was used to playing for high stakes and maybe thought it might well have been worth the risk and I for one, wouldn't blame her.

But they thought that once you’d had sex with someone, their seed could impregnate you at any time. One of the reasons why it was so important to be a virgin at marriage.

Did they?

I’ve never heard of that theory. My understanding is that both K of A and Henry VIII’s sister Mary had to be “kept waiting” for a while after their husbands died. Mary in particular, as she might have been carrying the French heir - but was sent home to England after a suitable interval demonstrated she wasn’t. Whereupon she promptly married Charles Brandon for love.

Could you link to where you read about this?

I think she knew he was going to get rid of her and it would have been normal to wish for a son, a son that could save her

As said upthread, until K of A died, there was no benefit in getting rid of Anne. Katherine died in early Jan 1936. Anne was pregnant at the time and miscarried a boy in late Jan. Henry instigated his abandonment of Anne at the end of April 1536. There really wasn’t a lot of time for her to recover from the miscarriage and find another sexual partner (willing to risk his neck!) in between the two.

It seems that Henry had got Anne pregnant at least twice since the birth of Elizabeth in September 1533. She had no reason to believe that he was incapable of getting her pregnant, provided she could get him to her bed.

You can't have it both ways. If Henry wasn't shagging her then trying to conceive a male child via a different man would be suicide. If she was trying to get pg she must have been DTD2TTC with Henry and also she must have had reason to believe he was shooting blanks in order to feel that having sex with other men was a good backup plan - but at the time there was little understanding of fertility and it was generally assumed to be the woman's fault if she didn't get pg - plus of course he wasn't shooting blanks as he did successfully father Edward not long after executing Anne, so there's not much substantive evidence that she would have thought of such a plan.

Pretty sure she was innocent but inconvenient.

Since she miscarried at 15 weeks in late Jan 1536, and Henry wouldn’t have gone to her bed once they knew she had missed her courses and might be pregnant, then there wasn’t a huge window in which Henry could have gone back to her bed (not sure how long aristocratic sex would typically pause after a miscarriage anyway in Tudor times).

This is why I like the Alison Weir book - it’s about dates and (lack of) logistical possibilities not speculation on motivation.

ETA it’s important to also remember that Anne (and the court in general) had no reason to believe tiring of her would equal her death, whereas actually committing adultery (ie treason) would certainly carry that danger.

I think they were trumped up charges. Henry wanted rid of her. If she hadn’t miscarried and the boy had lived, history would have been different.

Is there the famous quote ‘when a man marries his mistress he creates a vacancy’?

Henry VIII is in someways the original politician. He was all powerful and could get whatever - or whoever - he wanted. By this stage Anne Boleyn was no longer the gorgeous woman he was chasing but an inconvenience to be got rid of - by any means

I ponder how things would have been if KofA’s son Henry had lived to adulthood.

Mary would have probably then been married young enough to have had a family and there would have been no impetus for the split with Rome.

Also imo Henry stalked Anne. She withdrew to Hever castle initially, when he showed interest in her, she didn’t really want to become his mistress I don’t think. But he was the king what could she do? She wanted to marry Percy but Henry put paid to that. She was damned either way.

No, that was Cardinal Wolesey. Anne was supposed to marry into the Irish branch of her family, to resolve a dispute about a title/land. Harry Percy was supposed to marry Mary Talbot (daughter of an Earl) and his father thought Anne (daughter of a knight) wasn't high born enough for him.

That was all in 1523 and HVIII didn't started pursuing Anne until 1526 or so.

We can blame him for a lot, but not that one.

ETA Catherine Carey was born of Mary Boleyn in 1524, and she was probably HVIII's DD, so again, his attention wasn't on Anne in 1523.

From what I gather, she was very socially intelligent. She was about 22 when she began her flirtation with him and was 31 or 32 when she married him. She was mature enough and had been at court for long enough to know the risks. I very much doubt she would have been so stupid as to think she could get away write cheating on him.

Harry Percy was the son of the man who was the king's representative in the north and a man of considerable power and influence. Henry VIII would have the right to be involved in his marriage and give permission for it as he (Henry) didn't want a marriage that formed a power bloc that could threaten him. The Wars of the Roses were, after all, only recent history. It almost certainly wasn't because the king was already interested in Anne Boleyn.

Ahh ok thank you

Oh please come back and tell us more about this - I did not know this. How long after sex did they think you could be impregnated? What other things around pregnancy did they believe but got wrong? I imagine quite a lot.
Fascinating.

There is only one regarded historian who thinks she might not have been innocent. Most do.
Henry wanted a male heir more than he wanted anything. Including her.
A highly strung individual she did not always manage her temperament well. And she began to grate on Henry.

Cromwell understood that Henry wanted rid of her. So that is what he ensured happened. A nunnery would have been too risky. Supporters would have circled around her. She had to go. In rustling up the charges such as they were Cromwell sealed his own fate. He made a fool of Henry who never forgave him.

I cannot believe she would have had the wish, nor the opportunity to have sex with so many courtiers and her brother. A vain woman, feisty and with a high opinion of herself, it seems too incredible to take seriously.
Nor would she have risked someone saying Elizabeth was not Henry’s.
The Tudor court was a very tight gossipy place. People listening behind doors, curtains, and people simply everywhere. Henry and Anne were rarely alone.

Henry was not going to stay with a woman who could not give him a male child. And that, is it really. Shame he didn’t know, nor did anyone, that he was responsible for the sex of the child but there we are.

She had to go. In rustling up the charges such as they were Cromwell sealed his own fate. He made a fool of Henry who never forgave him.

Hmmm... HVIII continued to promote and favour Cromwell for about four years afterwards, until Cromwell couldn't easily get him out of the Anne of Cleves marriage

ETA Cromwell was leading the money gathering from closing monasteries. If Jane Seymour hadn't died shortly after Edward's birth, there's no reason to think that Henry wouldn't have stayed with her, been happy with his councillors such as Cromwell and maybe had another child or two by Jane. Jane was a legitimate wife in the eyes of all because K of A had died before they were married (as had Anne B, of course)

Henry couldn't really afford to divorce another wife . It would make him look bad and as a young woman with a daughter there would always be an argument to legitimise Elizabeth claim . Cromwell hadnt managed to get rid of Catherine quick enough for Henry and maybe was determined to make sure that there would be no comeback . It might just be believable that Anne would be foolish enough to risk one affair but unlikely . The possibility that she had multiple partners with all the observation that was normal on Court seems ludicrous. And her brother ? Incest was always a sin - think Cromwell added that to make her seem deviant and to get rid of George who might seek revenge.
I was really glad to read that Henry turned against Cromwell . And his Mercy, mercy, mercy pleas are ironic as he had absolutely none to anyone else.

All of this is just people theories and trying to put ourselves in history thinking about what we would do or what to us seems logical . Hindsight is everything isn't it which is what makes history so fascinating .

In rustling up the charges such as they were Cromwell sealed his own fate. He made a fool of Henry who never forgave him.

I think you're confusing Anne Boleyn with Anne of Cleves. Cromwell continued to be a trusted minister up till 1540. He was even given an earldom.

Anne was pretty strongly implicated in the poisoning of some prominent clergy, one (or more?) of whom died. I can't remember who they were and not in a position to look it up, but it is difficult to think who else would have been behind it if not her.

So not guilty of the charges for which she was executed, but possibly guilty of other things.