Was Anne Boleyn Innocent?

[TheNightScentedStock]

I'm not entirely sure.

It must have been so tempting to try and have a child. She knew it was out of the question with Henry and also knew that she was in danger of losing him.

A child, a son, would have secured her safety and destiny.

It would have been dangerous but maybe worth the risk.

She’d already had a daughter with Henry so why would she know it was out of the question with Henry. She probably thought the problem was her.

Her execution was politically charged so I personally don’t think she had an affair or anything and certainly not with her brother.

She was a very pious and shrewd woman. She was well advised by her family and closely scrutinised by her ladies in waiting (esp. Jane Rochford)

I don't think she had affairs.

Henry was bored with her, she hadn't given him a son and he was chasing another woman. He wanted rid and his advisors figured out how to do it without a messy divorce. She had very limited opportunity to have affairs she lived with the women of the court and her religion also made it pretty unlikely.

Of course she was innocent. Henry wanted rid.

Probably

She was female.

He had withdrawn from her though, hadn't he. According to Eric Ives, it was unlikley that they were having sex.

Which would have made having an affair even more dangerous as Henry would have known that any child wasn't his.

I agree she was not executed because she had (or didn't have) an affair but I'm pondering whether she ever thought about how safe a male heir would make her and if she thought of upping the chances of that?

Yes, you're right.

Henry was bored with her - what was exciting and arousing in a mistress was annoying in a wife

She upset Cromwell by wanting the money from sale of dissolved religious houses to go to educational projects

Henry was interested in another woman

She represented alliances with France and French interests at court, and in 1536 Henry was looking at an alliance with the Holy Roman emperor

Ives makes the point that she had lost control in her private apartments by allowing men to get more familiar with her than was appropriate for a queen

Once Catherine of Aragon was dead there was no obstacle to getting rid of Anne because the papacy couldn't tell him to go back to his first wife.

Hunting the Falcon is a good recent book about Anne. The authors make the comment that it took years to build up Boleyn power and influence and it all crashed to the ground in a matter of weeks.

She had courtiers and ladies in waiting and spies watching her every single move, there is no way she could have or would have done anything so dangerous as to try to get another man’s baby on her, absolutely not. Especially with Elizabeth’s place in the line of succession to be mindful of.

She did have a son though, born very prematurely and never lived. Didn’t Cromwell utter the famous line ‘she hath miscarried of her saviour’?

Hope was dashed after that, Henry distanced himself from her and that was the beginning of the end. Everyone, including Anne, must have known that was her last chance. Never in anyone’s wildest imaginings though did they think he’d go so far as to have her executed. I’m sure she imagined she’d slowly fade from view, he’d divorce her and she’d live out a quiet life in a nunnery.

Yes, I always feel for Anne -dancing in yellow to celebrate Katherine's death while not seeming to realise that Katherine's death left her in a more precarious spot,

I have Hunting The Falcon and I'm looking forward to it.

I take your point @DancingonmyOwn88 but I don't think it was beyond the wit of Anne to have private time...even Katherine Howard managed that and she didn't have Anne's brains.

That’s precisely it though. Anne was older, wiser, less impetuous and had lived in a Royal court (in France) from a young age before moving to England. She would have known the risks she was taking, whereas CH Was young, inexperienced and poorly advised.

I take your point but I don't think it was beyond the wit of Anne to have private time...even Katherine Howard managed that and she didn't have Anne's brains.

That however was what made her attendants suspicious - Katherine's fondness for the company of just one of her ladies (Jane Rochford) and going to spend hours visiting with her late at night. Once they were questioned about her life pre-marriage it made sense to spill everything they knew for their own protection.

Tudor courts were intensely political and full of spies, and those spies included the ladies in waiting of the queen, who were placed in her entourage not just as a matter of family status butalso so they could report back on what was going on to husbands, fathers and whatever diplomat or politician was bribing them for information.

I also recommend Hunting the Falcon, the writers spoil you for anybody else.

Not for the novice in Tudor politics, though. I studied the English Reformation for A level and was wholly confused by Henry VIII's religious and foreign policy; reading Hunting the Falcon reinforces my memory of the dizzying changes he made in both spheres according to what he was trying to achieve at home and abroad.

She was certainly manipulated by her scheming father and uncle.

I don't agree she was manipulated to any great extent, and especially not by her uncle. She had grown up at continental courts where she saw women wielding real power and influence and had plenty of agency of her own from the beginning of her relationship with Henry.

Her father was repellent, though - attending the trials of Anne and George.

Great! We're in the History Club!

Thanks for this thread, OP. I’ve often wondered whether there might have been more to the timing of Anne’s downfall than we know. What if Jane Seymour was already pregnant, or Henry at least suspected she might be? It could help explain the extraordinary urgency with which he moved to get rid of Anne and marry Jane.

Anne’s miscarriage in 1536 may have convinced Henry that she would never give him the son he desperately wanted. But if Jane offered the possibility of an heir, perhaps Henry was even more determined to remove Anne quickly and legitimise Jane's child.

Of course, there’s no firm evidence that Jane was pregnant at the time, so this is pure speculation. But Henry’s betrothal to Jane just one day after Anne’s execution, followed by their marriage only eleven days later, makes the speed of evnts striking.

As for Anne herself, I wonder whether she could have been driven to take desperate risks to secure her position? Anne had seen how Henry had treated her predecessor: someone he'd been married to for a lot longer. Anne knew what was at stake. Although, even she probably didn't think him capable of executing her. She probably thought she'd either end up estranged from her daughter and living in terrible conditions, or in a nunnery. Up until the final moments leading up to her execution, she still felt Henry would stop it and send her to a nunnery instead.

I’ve spent my whole life assuming that she was not guilty of the things Henry said.

But I recently did a couple of tours, looked at some library materials- you know the kind where you have to make a special request and use gloves - and talked to some historians, and it does seem that there is no evidence to suggest she was guilty of adultery as well as the fact that I just made an assumption ha ha.

he wanted a son that was all.

I kind of didn’t really know what I was looking at half the time to be honest, but when you talk to historians and they say there’s no evidence… as I say I never thought she did anything wrong anyway. I would imagine the same thing is true of Katherine Howard.

The Alison Weir book is very useful on dates - the majority of those alleged by Cromwell were all but impossible as she was either pregnant, in isolation after birth/miscarriage or simply not in the same location as her alleged bedmate!

ETA this one amzn.eu/d/0g3G5XoD

But Henry’s betrothal to Jane just one day after Anne’s execution, followed by their marriage only eleven days later, makes the speed of evnts striking.

This is the man who married Catherine Howard on the day that he executed his long term advisor and supporter Cromwell. Paraded in yellow with Anne after K of A died. Rode away from Anne and from K of A without saying goodbye.

If there was ever a person doing something outré to draw a line under the past, it was That Bastard Henry VIII.

as I say I never thought she did anything wrong anyway. I would imagine the same thing is true of Katherine Howard.

I believe there is documentation of CH’s love letters to Thomas Culpeper and their meetings happened with the facilitation of Lady Jane Rochford. Maybe it was all very chaste (…) but the two cases are not the same.

ETA also Henry was older and more unwell during the CH marriage, and he’d killed Cromwell so lost that particular intelligence on his staff.

But if Jane offered the possibility of an heir, perhaps Henry was even more determined to remove Anne quickly and legitimise Jane's child.

There's no sign Jane was pregnant when she married - one of the things of which she and her family made great play was her chastity in the face of the king's desire - a tactic adopted from Anne. What she did have was two healthy strong brothers, and HVIII may have been encouraged to hope that Jane would be as successful a bearer of sons as her mother had been.