A-level History instead of Econ for Econ/PPE courses at top unis

[sunisshiningandtweetingbirds]

YP's head suggested they might consider History instead of Econ at A-levels, along with Maths, Further Maths and a STEM.

YP does like History but is not as strong as their Maths/FM/Sciences (probably on for a 9 at GCSE but have oscillated between very high 9s and mid 8s). They don't offer Econ at GCSE at their school.

I know Econ is not necessary but maths and entry tests are key. But I've also heard Oxford students say that those who had done A-level Econ had an easier time with the interview and the early months academically.

And how do you 'signal' interest in Econ/PPE without Econ, Politics, Philosophy etc?

I'd love to hear from admissions staff or parents-in-the-know. Always appreciate the advice of @poetryandwine

TIA

I take your point, @Ceramiq . I don’t think you are contradicting anything said previously.

AI will continue to improve and, used interactively I am sure it is already a useful tool for economic and financial modelling and will soon be a better one. But the interaction is the key. Even the best, bespoke AI isn’t very good at research yet.

(There is a fairly recent article in the NY Times discussing an experiment of this nature by several very eminent mathematicians. They wrote up their results as only a slightly technical paper publicly available at arxiv.org called ‘First Proof’ - it comes in two parts and can be searched under that name. In the interview with the NY Times, in discussing interacting with the AI, one of the authors said it was like talking to himself.)

Analytical skills of different types will be key. They always have been. Our quant PhDs have one perspective, an MBA has another. Pieces of an interlocking puzzle.

Specialist economics jobs often need a postgraduate degree in economics. You can take a postgraduate degree in economics after a maths undergraduate degree very easily.

PPE tutor here.

As I'm sure you know, Maths is officially recommended. I would say it is HIGHLY recommended. It is very difficult to get through the first year of PPE without A-level maths. I think more than 95% of our students have Maths now.

After that, it really doesn't matter much, either for admissions decisions or for the course afterwards, so I would just go with what you enjoy and are good at. I know the website singles out History to some extent: "You may apply for PPE having done any combination of subjects at school; it is not necessary to have studied Politics, Philosophy or Economics. History can provide a useful background, but is not essential" but I know may PPE tutors find that quite strange.

Broadly speaking, I would say that keeping up an essay subject can be helpful so that you are not completely out of the habit of writing, but it's certainly not essential. My impression is that the type of essay writing A level students are encouraged to do these days can be horribly formulaic so it isn't particularly helpful and can even do more harm than good. About half of our students have studied Economics and I think initially they feel a bit more confident, but in fact there is quite a lot of "unlearning" to do, and it can be easier to start without any preconceptions. I'm sure it isn't an advantage by the end of the first year.

Beyond Maths, I don't think any tutors take into account the subjects taken when making admitting students. We certainly don't do it explictly. We look at GCSE grades, entrance test results, and interviews and a little tiny bit at reference/personal statement. Interviews are designed not to test prior knowledge of economics (and again, students can go astray if they try to bring in too much prior knowledge rather than just thinking!).

You'll find some statistics on subjects taken here Admissions Statistics | PPE
Look at the "further statistics" in particular. Interestingly I see that the proportion of accepted students with A level Econ is lower than the proportion of applicants with A level Econ, though I wouldn't necessarily read too much into that!

I believe the use of maths and models in Physics and Economics is quite similar. I am an economist. Admittedly i don't know that much about Physics.

Thanks @poetryandwine

I think specialist economics jobs (which there aren't that many of and are generally called Economist/Senior Economist/Chief Economist etc) are different to general IB or consultancy entry. There are lots of jobs within banking and finance requiring a whole range of skills and both Maths and Economics are good.

Most people in specialist economics roles it is usual for them to have a Masters in Economics, some have phDs but this is rarer and some have about 4 degrees in multiple subjects but this is rarer again. It very much depends on the job - the ones I have done require an Economics degree and often ask for a Economics Masters. Someone who has done Economics for 4 years will have a much deeper knowledge than someone who has done in for 1. However, if it were a job which was 80% maths then the person with the maths degree then economics masters would be in a stronger position. The roles I have done are maybe 20% maths and require a lot of writing skills (reports, press releases, occasionally speeches), public speaking, researching, surveys, social skills and a lot of social events, knowledge of countries economics, politics, history and sometimes laws). Basically do the degree you prefer doing out of those, if you want a job that's 80% to 100% maths then take a degree that's relevant to that, if you want a job where you are writing reports, press releases, looking at policy, looking at countries politics and economics then an economics degree with some politics, development economics, history is a very good base. Though once you are in work it goes a lot on what previous roles you have done and degree becomes less important. If its money you are after then specialist economics roles tend to pay less than more mainstream IB roles but still well paid if in finance.

Finance degree is an interesting one, it used to be viewed sceptically in finance and always retaught in work but it has become much more mathematical (DD says finance maths is harder than economics maths in E&M) and I think more respected. I don't know what impact AI will have, attempts to automate things in the past have often failed to do the in depth thinking but things advance. I suspect joint degrees have become much more popular over time so I would imagine flexibility will increase. The E&M people we now are fine for getting jobs though many of them have been to top independent schools and very financially successful families so how much is the course and how much is their background hard to say.

FD applied and they wanted maths and further maths and suggested history even for economics all the tops unis suggested other options would be better than economics.

My DH and children all feed information about companies into AI and get excellent models back in minutes - my DH said that, at the beginning of his career, similar models would have required 2 consultants and 6 associate consultants for several weeks and it would have been full of bugs and weak hypotheses 😱

I would look on the admissions sites of the relevant courses and also look at course content and A level course content though other than required subjects, subjects don't normally have special status - you won't get an offer just because someone thinks wow that's a harder A level combination.

This is LSE Economics which is very clear and detailed, the LSE course is a very mathematical course and is one for students who love maths. I think overall 70% of people with A levels doing economics degrees have done Economics A level but its a much higher proportion at Oxbridge (93% and 90%) and personally I would not want to be in the 7% of a subject I could not drop and wanted my future in. Its also good to test the subject and see if you like it though I didn't like the A level but loved the GCSE and the degree and the jobs. Cambridge used to say they retaught it but Oxford/Cambridge's idea of no knowledge ime is very different to no knowledge. It often can mean you don't need this precise qualification but you need to have extensive reading / researching and at least the basics. There's one guy on the internet who said he did a PPE interview which he failed as they said no knowledge of philosophy required and they started asking about Aristotle. This particularly harms those coming from comps in deprived areas with parents who may not realise themselves. Though they do try and adjust nowadays.

• We’re looking for students with strong mathematical abilities and A-level Mathematics (or equivalent) is therefore required.
• Further Mathematics at A-level is also desirable, and is acceptable for entry in combination with Mathematics and one other A-level. In these cases we'd prefer that the third A-level should be an essay-based subject. If you take four or more full A-levels, you’ll be expected to achieve A A A (with A in Mathematics), and a pass in the fourth A-level. We understand that not all schools/colleges offer Further Mathematics and you won’t be disadvantaged as a result – please could you and/or your referees indicate this on your application form.
• An A* in Further Mathematics plus an A grade in Mathematics is an acceptable alternative.
• Alongside Mathematics, we’re looking for subject combinations that demonstrate your analytical and writing abilities. Typical subject choices include Economics, Physics, History, Chemistry, English, and Government and Politics, of which Economics, History, English and Government and Politics are good indicators of writing ability.
• Many students on the programme have studied A-level Economics or equivalent but it is not required.

This is a random bank and their economics and strategy team backgrounds, there's a bias towards Dutch qualifications which will just be as they are a Dutch bank but otherwise roles and people look fairly typical set up. Though every bank can have a different set up - some will put with strategy, some with risk, some with sales/front office.

https://think.ing.com/about/meet-the-team/

There aren't that many specialised economics jobs relative to numbers doing economics degrees - my back of a fag packet calculation would be around 10,000 Economist jobs in total across UK public and private sectors (3,500 in civil service GES, maybe 3,000 in finance) and around 34,000 Economics undergraduates per year. So majority end up in other roles including general banking or accountancy.

Sure. Modelling companies is one thing, modelling national and international economies successfully is another.

Good AI excels at synthesising vast amounts of known facts and drawing some conclusions, being superior to humans in many respects. A lot of the research is around that which can be readily deduced from what is known. Because LLMs sort so much faster than our brains there is great potential here, but they need a lot of training.

A lot of Economics graduates end up modelling companies or national public policy. Some of the modelling of the impact of Brexit on UK universities might have been a bit better if eg the people doing the modeling had been able to spend less time on Excel and more time doing qualitative research into things like the price elasticity of the largest EU markets for incoming students. I'm full of hope for AI - but the skill set to leverage it is going to have a different emphasis to the model building skill set that has been so pre-eminent for 30 years.

Most people on Dd2 ‘s Economics degree course did the A level

@pinkspeakersMaybe but the op was asking about PPE. Not every A level should be geared to economics. Unless dc wants economics. The minute it’s PPE, it changes the A levels somewhat.

You said that you didn't see the link between Economics and Physics. I argued (as an economics professor/tutor at Oxford) that I believe there is quite a strong link.

If you'd said that you didn't see much of a link between Physics and Politics then I would have agreed with you.

The A-level advice for Economics versus PPE would be a little different, but not very. In theory you don't necessarily need Maths for PPE, but I wouldn't recommend it. An essay subject is relatively more useful for PPE than for Economics, but it still isn't essential by any means. Economics isn't necessary or even particularly recommended for either.

At Oxford the admissions process is done by the colleges but centralised so everyone has more or less the same interview and if recalled for a second set of interviews at another college for economics these are also the same. So people are scored on the set interview.

It really isn't true that everyone has more or less the same interview across different colleges at Oxford. Tutors all prepare their own interview questions and there is no coordination on questions. I have been interviewing Economics/PPE applicants at Oxford for over 20 years.

Using AI both productively and rigorously is a challenge. Focusing on the trees rather than the forest is a certain approach to science and, I presume, economics. I am not sure how AI will affect personal proclivities. It is a tool, not a guide.

Thanks to everyone who responded to my question on maths or economics for a career in economics. I didn't know that some employers would stipulate an economics degree, so that is really useful. He says he doesn't want to work in finance, although he does seem quite interested in money (how it works, rather than earning loads of it). I assume he mean he is put off by the way that he thinks finance careers work. Admittedly he is only year 11, so really deciding on A level choices rather than career path.

@pinkspeakersIf PPE, and not economics, look at what most dc offer. It’s not sciences with no essay subject. History is preferable to physics if no essay subject is present. Maths and FM cover the science side.

To save me repeating myself, please read my post from 09.12 yesterday. What most candidates offer isnt really relevant, what matters is what the people making the admissions decisions are looking for. I have been making PPE admissions decisions at Oxford for over 20 years so I do know what I'm talking about.

You'd be surprised at how little A level subjects matter for some degree subjects. For example, we recently offered a place to study History and Economics to a candidate without A level history.

I'm sure you know far more about the interviews than me @pinkspeakers I had just assumed they were standardised as the questions were all generic and none relating to anything on personal statement until the "this doesn't count but I am very interested" part. Does that mean you could ask one student about the books they have read but not all or ask one about game theory but not all? DD was given a passage to read at the start and questioned on it, though not sure if that was E or M.

Re jobs I would not worry about which degree @GoodNamesOnly as its a very small number of economics jobs and they get many applicants and even with economics degrees it takes lots of persistence normally and people often go to other things. The Bank of England would be worth looking at if he's interested in how money works. They have a lovely little museum as well if you are by London. Its super competitive for their roles but someone has to get them. They do a few degree apprenticeships and have a great website for education.

@OneZanyCat It's considered best practice in interviews to ask essentially the same questions to all candidates, though follow up questions will depend on candidate responses (it's supposed to be a bit like a tutorial discussion). So we wouldn't normally be asking candidates about their personal statement or books they've read. But different interviewers in different colleges wouldn't use the same questions; everyone comes up with their own, based on the same criteria. We might also rotate between different questions to reduce the risk of information sharing across candidates.

Thanks very much @pinkspeakers

DD has friends who applied successfully for PPE. A real mixed bunch in there. Everyone did Maths A level, at least. Some did FM.
For girls, some did eg History, English and Maths or RS, Maths and a Language even. For the boys, the Econ tends to be in there with Maths, FM and Physics, typically. A couple did Latin as a third A level. I think it is a bit like a Law degree at top level, you need a logical mind which is both good at Maths and Verbal Reasoning/Logic and top grades.

Sure it's a tool but it's going to dramatically reduce the value of the skill in the value chain that is Excel analysis that has been capturing huge amounts of value in the past 30 years.