A-level History instead of Econ for Econ/PPE courses at top unis

[sunisshiningandtweetingbirds]

YP's head suggested they might consider History instead of Econ at A-levels, along with Maths, Further Maths and a STEM.

YP does like History but is not as strong as their Maths/FM/Sciences (probably on for a 9 at GCSE but have oscillated between very high 9s and mid 8s). They don't offer Econ at GCSE at their school.

I know Econ is not necessary but maths and entry tests are key. But I've also heard Oxford students say that those who had done A-level Econ had an easier time with the interview and the early months academically.

And how do you 'signal' interest in Econ/PPE without Econ, Politics, Philosophy etc?

I'd love to hear from admissions staff or parents-in-the-know. Always appreciate the advice of @poetryandwine

TIA

I can understand what the Head is saying about originality being needed and I also have thought with those odds you do need someway of getting noticed (we did try and be different but whether that helped or not who knows, its not really scored and you need to ensure what is scored is as perfect as possible) but History A level is a common A level for Economics and I would not class it as original. Having a specialist interest related to economics can help but it needs to be one your son loves - could be like the economics of another country or current affairs which include economics. Like at the moment I might have looked at Falklands economy and political history. I did Eastern Europe and change from communist economies and started studying it pre them being free.

I don't know exactly how they choose the independent school candidates as they must have about 150 out of 277 suitable (guessing numbers) with all identical grades. State is similar odds but more differentiation between grades. Obviously the entrance test. Its 3 per place interviewed so you do see a lot of 4 A star, all 9s at GCSE but weaker entrance test knocked out pre interview. I would say the ones DD is with have the personality of leaders and have had various positions of responsibility and they are all nice and confident but not arrogant. Good at networking, all social, would put themselves in a leadership role if a meeting, bossy. This is likely the management side rather than economics and it may just be the people DD knows and DD. DD was telling the interviewer what to do at her interview a few times and corrected his maths. Economics alone you can be a mouse. Ideally they would make more places available but think they take space from the business school and can get more income from that.

I think it needs to be borne in mind that PPE has a very heavy workload and essays! There’s a reason why History is good prep. @sunisshiningandtweetingbirdsI do feel running away from History because it’s time consuming isn’t going to help at Oxford. It’s a course for all rounders and those who can juggle everything and at pace. So I think an essay subject is pretty much vital. So is maths. FM too and then a science, a MFL (if you really want to stand out) or another humanity, eg Politics, Economics.

There are plenty of applicants to PPE from plurilingual backgrounds - the son of an old school friend whose father is German, mother French and went to an international school ie completely trilingual with a couple of MFL in addition read PPE at Oxford - so I'm not sure an MFL A-level would make anyone a stand out applicant.

@Ceramiq It would if they are a uk student and plenty of them are. Internationally educated students are not a majority. MFL A levels are still viewed by Cambridge as good prep
for their non Stem courses so they are a good shout. Having said that, PPE at Oxford doesn’t really want any stand out A level. They want ones that are essay based and maths. I’d put History as the best for essays and English lit and then maths, plus a third academic one. A MFL ticks all boxes but Politics, Economics, Psychology would all be fine.

My friend did Chemistry, French, Maths and Economics for PPE. But this was in the days of entrance exams when it was so much easier to showcase your brilliance, interest and wider reading ahead of the invitation to an Oxford interview.

PPE at Oxford you need to demonstrate you are extremely intelligent and capable of a large and diverse workload.

I think my friend’s A levels panned out well as it developed her very roundly. That’s good for PPE, to have that broad skill set and ability to think about a problem in multiple ways.

At Oxford the admissions process is done by the colleges but centralised so everyone has more or less the same interview and if recalled for a second set of interviews at another college for economics these are also the same. So people are scored on the set interview.

Cambridge the colleges have more flexibility and indeed some colleges have different requirements for economics as detailed here.
https://www.undergraduate.study.cam.ac.uk/courses/economics-ba-hons

There are a lot of international students on E&M and a lot that have languages because they have multi-lingual families. Anecdotally I have noticed the philosophy professors I have met will go into a different language (French especially) at any opportunity. In my Cambridge interview the admissions tutor at the start tried to conduct the whole interview in French (arts background). I frankly terrified at this said I would prefer not (only had GCSE French from a underperforming comp) and they reverted to English. I think a lot of these extra things don't directly score so there's an element of luck involved as to whether it impresses them or not. And when you see scores for people who did the same interview at 2 colleges they can be quite different like 6 at one and 9 at another. Subjects related to the ones you want to study or the ones you want to study are the safest bet. I would study things that genuinely interest your child. They were very good at telling if you loved something or you had been made to do something.

School offers econ. You want to do econ, you do economics a level.

Maths FM Physics Economics is the ideal standard

I would agree for an economics degree at Cambridge or E&M at Oxford if your school offers economics you should take it along with at least Maths A level for E&M (realistically FM, ideally with stats option, as well from a top independent) and for Cambridge definitely Maths and FM as well. There are schools that don't offer economics A level especially state comps so the ones without could be ones who wanted to but couldn't and the LSE for example asked re FM, did your school offer this. Only 53% of comps offer A level economics, 90% of grammars do, 82% of privates.

While Maths and FM are essential for the top Economics degrees, many international students on Economics degrees won't have done Economics previously (or, if they have, it won't have looked like Economics A-level).

@OofFjdj Not for PPE. There’s no hard essay subject. Economics is 1/3 of PPE. If DS wants Economics, that’s different but I’d still argue History is better than Physics. Don’t see the link between Physics and Economics. An essay subject is preferable in the mix.

He's stronger at sciences than history.

My son (who did economics at LSE) studied Maths, FM, Physics, Economics.

Admission tutors like physics because it's a rigourous subject and shows you can model systems.

If you want to do economics at university, makes sense to take the subject for A-level (especially if the school offers it).

I think for the fourth A level if taken for Economics (after Maths, FM, Economics) then it depends what you want to do as options what is best. So if you are looking at doing politics / international development / history options take politics or modern history. If you are looking at doing almost all maths based then maybe physics or computing (if you have a school that can keep a computing teacher longer than a few months). I would go with your interests and find a course with your interests so you enjoy it and enjoy the jobs after.

Not sure about international students backgrounds - the offer rate is low at 3.8% to international applicants for E&M. Economics is a global subject, led by US and I would have expected it taught in US schools and think the basics will be the same globally. A lot of Asian students for economics as well whom I am not sure if its taught or not (some are from British international schools so would assume its an option there, often banking families) but all the Asians I have known have worked incredibly hard and if behind in something would study hard to catch up. Whereas DD would be off rowing or socialising and others would get depressed at being behind. Depends on what type of child you have how much of an issue it is but always safest in those situations to have an option to drop completely. Most people dropping economics I've heard about its the maths so I would not encourage it unless maths was your strongest/easiest GCSE. The maths required on the top maths based economics courses is similar to that for a maths degree. The only European person I knew had an Economics university professor as a parent and he became one.

There is very strong applied maths link between Physics and Economics - and indeed, Economics students with Physics often say that Physics not Maths was a more helpful preparation.

The other thing to bear in mind for Oxbridge economics is the terms are shorter and more intense so opportunities for catching up in term time are more limited than places with longer terms.

Lots of data on E&M in this if anyone is very bored.
www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/economics_management_statistics_2

@Ceramiq I’m talking about Philosophy and Politics. Where the connection with physics? If dc wants PPE, do History or similar.Dc will have the necessary maths and even FM. A third subject should not be a science unless they might switch to engineering.

Physics is great for Philosophy.

Very much so. Philosophy of science is a vast vast field. So much overlap as well.

Stupid question, probably, but you lot seem knowledgeable!

If you wanted to work as an economist in the future, is an economics degree definitely more desirable than a maths one? DS very interested in economics but I think he has a natural flair for maths and it might give him more options in the future. Also, are joint maths and economics degrees considered a good combination or a compromise?

Thank you!

I worked most of my life as an economist and everyone I have worked with has 100% economics degrees. Civil service economics jobs have a rule of 50% economics and a 2:1 but I only knew people with 100%. Finance again always 100% economics and often with further economics degrees, sometimes the further degrees are in more specialist areas. However, if he's looking to say do a very maths based role in finance the people I knew doing those had maths or physics PhDs. The roles I did generally concerned macroeconomics of countries and risk. Currently roles have become more maths based and are sometimes asking for computing languages but the maths goes in phases - generally economy going well it goes more maths based, economy going badly and there is a lot of uncertainty it goes to abandoning the models (which revert to trend) and back to written analysis where skills like politics / history / development /public speaking become more important. There can be more demand for economists in a downturn and its more interesting often. I would go with what they enjoy then the right job will follow. Its a great job and everyone I know loved it.

This site has some economics and economics related jobs - you can see in adverts what degrees they take. Both economics and maths have good job opportunities so I would not worry too much between them but do which you prefer so you get the job you prefer. You do find some people who switch though they seem to have about 4 degrees and very rich parents I presume or previously very rich parents.

economistjobs.com/

Many professionals economist roles (that have Economic in the name) require a degree that is 50% economics.

Economics itself has lots of maths. Maths and & economics just has more mathematics modules directly instead of it being applied within economics.

An excellent question, as is @OneZanyCat ‘s reply.

To add to what she says, I would just want to clarify if DS’ interest is in Economics, Finance, or a mixture? It seems to me that roughly you have corresponding answers of studying Economics, Maths (possibly Financial Maths) or a Joint Hons course.

I know that might be a subtle distinction for a YP still in school.

Best wishes to DS

On the Maths vs Economics question: neither degree has ever been a direct preparation for the IB or consultancy type careers that young people are so desperate to enter. I have this hunch that, with the advent of AI, students will need to know more about how markets function and not just focus on the analytical skills that allow shareholders to extract monetary value from companies. When Gemini or Claude can create your Excel model almost instantly, your personal added value as an employee is going to be knowing a great deal about products and services and how that knowledge can be leveraged to respond better to customers. Design will make all the difference.