French baccalaureate for engineering applications to UK universities

[chocolatebourbon]

Good afternoon ladies, My son is considering applying to do Engineering at a UK Uni (ideally with a focus on Automotive Engineering/Motorsport) for a 2027 start. He will have the French baccalaureate with maths snd physics/chem as specialities plus the ‘expert maths’ option. I have read before on here that for entry to high tarrif Unis the French baccalaureate is pretty uncompetitive compared to A-levels given that the French are obliged to spend a good chunk of time on languages, humanities etc so will be less specialised, less likely to do really well on mathematical aptitude tests etc. Does anybody have any real world experience of this? My son averages 17-18 (with 18-19 in maths and physics/chem) which on paper is enough for Oxbridge/Imperial but I’m not convinced of the reality. Also any general thoughts on Unis with a more practically focussed automotive/motorsport engineering course? He may decide not to apply high tariff but instead focus on places that are more closely aligned to his interests (eg Oxford Brookes and I think coventry have specific motorsport courses) but I’m not sure how sensible that would be. Or anybody whose DS/DD has stayed in the French system for engineering (as that is our other option but prob a ‘prépa intégré’ as he doesn’t want another 2 years at lycée).PS For UK, will likely be categorised as a home student for the purpose of fees so we won’t have the ‘international student’ advantage.

That's what I would go for. Far better to invest his time fully in his French bac.

French teachers working within the French education system generally have very little grasp of international qualifications or international university admissions criteria for English as a second language. Their opinions on the relative merits of the wide range of possible ways of gaining a qualification in English as an 18 year old should be taken with a massive pinch of salt. Understandably many of them are curious about qualifications beyond the French bac LV1 Anglais or Spécialité LLCE Anglais and some teachers/schools offer add ons. I do not doubt their sincerity - a lot of them are terribly frustrated with the limited official programmes they are required to teach and fully aware that the resources of Education Nationale do not allow students to reach an acceptable standard of English. But that curiosity about other qualifications does not necessarily extend into well informed advice to individuals nor the opportunity costs of pursing an additional qualification versus a student investing heavily towards maximizing bac grades in the Spécialités subjects which are the main criteria upon which UK university offers are made.

ESAT is unattainable for French bac students without massive investment in tutoring - and even then.

BFI can be useful because some UK universities give you a decent “discount” on grades compared to straight BF - eg a friend’s kid was offered 16 with BFI for law at Oxford last year. Quite a bit more work though…

It's not really a discount, more a way of compensating for the extra work involved for doing BFI rather than the French bac and for the sometimes rather low grades that BFI students get on the BFI part. Personally I think it's a complete waste of time for bilingual British students who are at a decent lycée sous contrat - they are far better off maxing out their French bac and learning everything that a French education teaches.

This is really interesting and helpful, thank you everyone (and sorry OP if I've slightly hijacked the thread).

It is so difficult to know what to do and like PP said, the teachers at Ds's school are well meaning but can't be expected to know what's best for a bilingual/internationally oriented kid.

One teacher suggested the TOEIC for DS (not at all relevant for him) or to do their European section - which involves an extra hour of English per week and 1 extra hour of Maths, taught in English per week..... the places available are limited and more students apply than get in.. DS gets more English than that at home on a daily basis and I can't see how the extra time at school would benefit him. Not to mention I would feel bad that he was taking the place of someone who hasn't had the advantage of a bilingual upbringing.

@TadpolesInPool What year is your DS currently in at lycée?

Horses for courses though …. More continuous assessment, less pressure from the final exams, that’s helpful for some. My DC will probably opt for BFI for Sept to minimise final exams drama.

@TadpolesInPoolEuro Maths seems lame, dunno why people go mad for it, it seems like it’s not going to make much difference.

The BFI usually has more not less in the way of final exams versus the normal bac which is one argument for it when applying for UK universities which aren't keen on continuous assessment and prefer public examinations.

What is the difference between French bacc and International Baccalaureate? Because IB is regarded as well as A Levels.

Completely different curriculum and examinations. French Bac is the national French secondary school final leaving diploma.

An interesting hijack for me as my DD is currently in 3ème and applying for BFI for lycée. It will suit her as she can avoid ‘boring’ anglais LV1 and study Shakespeare instead. This is her idea of fun(!) rather than a way to sell herself to Unis - but I don’t think it’s a bad idea if you are genuinely bilingual and inclined towards languages/humanities/social sciences. DS is in a ‘European’ section but Italian rather than English. I agree with Ceramiq that these add-ons don’t help much for Uni and take up time that could be more efficiently spent upping the average in speciality subjects. But they can help with motivation for teens that genuinely want to do them - often the class gets on very well as they have chosen to be there (not always the case for specialities. as there tends to be parental pressure towards science/maths). DS id considering dropping Italian Euro for Terminale and I’m leaving it up to him - I really don’t think it makes much difference either way. (Neither DD nor DS were remotely interested in anglais euro, for the reasons you give Tadpoles.)

@Ceramiq

DS is in 3eme, starting lycee in September. His school only offers the French bac + a weird "section européenne" which seems very light on English + Cambridge and is now starting to offer the Dual Diploma (although it's actually just a partnership- all online and costs extra).

He wants to be a research scientist. Which is fantastic. But unfortunately VERY different to what DH and I studied so I don't know how best to advise him.

All my friends who have older kids talk about "parcoursup" as if it's the bogey man. All the things you need to do to maximise your chances of being accepted into whatever course you want.

I find the French system quite hard to follow with the university vs prepa + grande école etc. I had a look on parcoursup and there are just so many choices of what to study!

(Although I am glad he knows what he wants to do. That really helps)

@chocolatebourbon that's great that your DD is interested in English not just as LV1. DS is very science/maths so not his scene at all (although he devours fiction books in English).

@TadpolesInPool To which country does your DS intend to go for his HE?

He's undecided.

We've vaguely discussed the UK or France but realistically I think the first degree will be in France. Then masters/PhD in the UK or the US.

And when I say it like that, it's true that the Dual Diploma won't mean anything once he already has a degree...

DS was lucky enough to do his 3eme work experience in a research lab. He asked everyone he met what they studied and unfortunately (or fortunately! ) they all took different paths to get there. It's not like most of our friends who did the typical prepa then HEC/ Polytechnic/ ESSEC.

A prépa scientifique (and there are several pathways) is an inexpensive way to get a very solid scientific education that prepares for different concours and écoles d'ingénieurs (scientific HE). However, competition for the best prépas that are feeder schools for the best écoles d'ingénieurs is intense. It's a good idea to research this early. Prépas do have open days these days, mostly in January each year.

Yes, if students are truly excited about the BFI content and the teachers are good (not a given), why not? You (or your child) need to be realistic about what French school offers and what the admissions criteria for their chosen path of study values - schools can, tbh, be rather disingenuous about this - and ensure they have their bases properly covered but there is always time with the French bac to do some extra courses, be that the BFI, an in depth language in a Section européenne or extracurricular sport/art/music.

For lycée students interested in a prépa scientifique it is worth taking a look at the Tescia.

My two are through university now (well DD will be tomorrow..). Both were at French lycees (private ones but not the same one!).

DS did the old style bac S with maths as his specialisation. He applied for Oxford but didn’t even get an interview due to the maths exam. Even though he was a 19/20 student in maths there was too much on there that he had never seen! So preparation is key. He did the Cambridge Advanced certification with 30m of prep from me (Cambridge examiner) and passed with the highest grade. We were rather under informed and he only got 2 offers (CS). School only helped in the sense they did the reference. He ended up in Asia and that suited him perfectly! He was insistent that he wasn’t going to do 2 years of prepa. Even though his degree was 4 years, he still started work 2 years before his french friends who did go down the prepa route. Though admittedly he is now in London. Coming back to work in France was not high on his list.

DD we went through the system twice - though we were better informed this time round! No uni asked for any English language certificate - just over 16/20 in English (she did that as one of her options…). Why twice? Her first attempt at a UK uni was a disaster - in no small part to the fact she was only 17. She couldn’t do most of the evening events and couldn’t play competitive rugby until she was 18. She just didn’t settle. She went into round 2 with a better idea of what she wanted. Surprisingly she wants to do a Masters - but in the EU. But probably not France as she just doesn’t like their way of educating their youth! As a teacher I can see her point of view…

My other advice would be to visit the cities where he is considering going. Reality can be different to image!!

@Ceramiq @MintoTime @poetryandwine Hope you are having a pleasant Sunday! Do you have any idea of the likely ‘moyenne’ needed to get into EPFL (Lausanne) to do MechEng (or indeed any other bachelors course…) for non Swiss students? On their website it says a minimum of 16 in the French bac but also says that non-Swiss student numbers are capped and therefore only those with the highest grades will be admitted. Obviously we can ask at open day where the cut off is likely to be drawn but I suspect they will give a wooly answer as of course it will vary every year. But it would be nice to get a firmer idea of what DS would need to aim for…

I am sorry, @chocolatebourbon , I don’t know. That’s a very good programme, so I wish your DS the best of luck.

I hope that @Ceramiq or @MintoTime will be able to help you.

Yes, at the moment entrance to EPFL is conditional on 16/20 overall plus subject combinations but no one in the know believes that it's going to remain that low. I would be aiming for at least 18/20 MG and 18/20 in both Spécialités (Maths and Physique-Chimie) plus Maths Expertes. The issue with EPFL is not just getting in, but not getting thrown out and progressing. Some students take 5 years to complete undergraduate there.

The Bachelor degrees at Ecole Polytechnique and Centrale-McGill (dual diploma) are in my opinion at bit safer than EPFL in terms of progression and since they filter on English can be very interesting for Anglophone students in the French system.

Thank you so much @Ceramiq…I suspected 16 would not cut it but 18 MG will be a challenge! It’s a realistic goal for the Spé but he would really have to up his game on the other subjects too…we shall see. The suggestion has come from DS so clearly he is getting some ambitious steers from school/classmates, which feels positive. Point taken re staying on the course and progressing..will let him ponder on that and on the other Bachelors you mentioned.