French baccalaureate for engineering applications to UK universities

[chocolatebourbon]

Good afternoon ladies, My son is considering applying to do Engineering at a UK Uni (ideally with a focus on Automotive Engineering/Motorsport) for a 2027 start. He will have the French baccalaureate with maths snd physics/chem as specialities plus the ‘expert maths’ option. I have read before on here that for entry to high tarrif Unis the French baccalaureate is pretty uncompetitive compared to A-levels given that the French are obliged to spend a good chunk of time on languages, humanities etc so will be less specialised, less likely to do really well on mathematical aptitude tests etc. Does anybody have any real world experience of this? My son averages 17-18 (with 18-19 in maths and physics/chem) which on paper is enough for Oxbridge/Imperial but I’m not convinced of the reality. Also any general thoughts on Unis with a more practically focussed automotive/motorsport engineering course? He may decide not to apply high tariff but instead focus on places that are more closely aligned to his interests (eg Oxford Brookes and I think coventry have specific motorsport courses) but I’m not sure how sensible that would be. Or anybody whose DS/DD has stayed in the French system for engineering (as that is our other option but prob a ‘prépa intégré’ as he doesn’t want another 2 years at lycée).PS For UK, will likely be categorised as a home student for the purpose of fees so we won’t have the ‘international student’ advantage.

(Just picking up your point re fees - I think to be a home student you need to have been resident in uk for the 3 years before you start the course, regardless of nationality)

There is a Brexit withdrawal agreement exemption to this, but it finishes soon. This years première will qualify for it, but they are the last year.

I would also echo the need to interrogate who actually gets into sports automotive engineering from the specific courses he’s looking at. Employment might have nothing to do with engineering. These firms recruit engineers from multiple sources and often someone with a racing pedigree stands a better chance. Knowledge of even carts will make a difference.

This is a good point. The programmes successful in placing graduates are usually happy to discuss their statistics

TadpolesinPool, the C1 cambridge cert was really not too difficult. He had about 6 hours prep classes in school before the exam. This was mainly familiarisation with the exam format. We speak English at home 100% of the time (except with French visitors) but he does not really read for pleasure in English any more (not since the Percy Jackson age and stage), so I had my doubts but it was fine. It cost around 300 euros to sit (no idea how standard this is or if school marked it up to cover the extra lessons as well) but of course you would need to find an exam centre.

I would be totally on board with all the gap year suggestions except that it would screw his fees status - he would need to start Uni in 2027 to benefit from the final year of Brexit-transition exemption.

Of course, OP, what awful timing regarding fees.

The question then arises: is DS ready to plunge into university work with a cohort who will be 1-2 (many 2) years older, and to succeed? In a new environment?

Do you see him holding his own, neither shirking nor being taken advantage of, in group projects? Integrating socially? Does he have a sport or hobby to pursue at university around which to build friendships?

We have more and more teetotal students, but I am guessing that AE skews male and a bit macho. DS could be limited by not being allowed to drink - though if he likes to sink a pint I am not sure, realistically, how much of a limitation this will be. However a 17 yo brain will be more vulnerable to the effects of heavy drinking than one even a couple of years older, if that is a concern.

Not all of my young starters have had problems, by any means. But most of them have.

Posted too soon

Depending on the answers to those questions, perhaps DS could consider doing a gap year, UG in France and an MSc in the UK? Then he would be employable throughout the EU and UK

This is obviously a critical consideration.

UK Engineering degrees are generally very accessible for high performing French bac applicants so don't be put off by scaremongering about comparative standards of Maths and Physics between A-levels and the French bac as this is only really a problem for Natural Sciences (eg pure Physics) and Economics degrees and of course anything Medicine related. Cambridge and Imperial are fantastically competitive for everyone and require high performance in the scary ESAT but there are plenty of respectable Engineering degrees elsewhere.

Doing a gap year between French bac and French undergraduate is generally not possible for selective courses. Also French engineering degrees tend to be Masters only ie 2 years of prépa and 3 years of Engineering school leading to a Masters degree with no intermediate undergraduate qualification.

Minto, your solution of a ‘gap year at a local Uni’ sounds great and I’m so pleased your DS is enjoying it. This was another reason I was keen on a prépa as it can be done locally and although workload might be brutal it is easy to come home at weekends. poetryandwine, you make some really good points. He is a ‘joiner’ with a sport and would want to do karting/formula student type societies, quite handy on a pool table and can hang out in a bar without drinking, but still I think you are right and he could nevertheless struggle a bit socially. More in terms of his role in group projets, as you say. It would be a long way from home despite other family members potentially being nearby. I think on this basis UK may be a longshot. ENAT also a bit much given the timing and likely urge to have a break from studying over the long summer hols. We may put in a UCAS application to non UCAT Unis but on the basis that he will probably not use this and stay in the French system. I guess we have time on our side to think about all this for a bit if we rule out ENAT this October. Thank you all so much. I didn’t really expect to get such well-informed and helpful responses, but you should never underestimate mumsnet ;)

Apologies to all but particularly OP: I omitted the word or. My thought was to do a gap year ( I wrote of Physics and FM primarily for cultural and enrichment purposes) and do a gap year or UG in France now followed by a British MSc. Perhaps that won’t work.

We get students on our MSc from France.

Do those students apply independently to your university or do they apply as part of a partnership agreement?

Probably a bit of both. They want to work in the UK.

For students who wish to be properly qualified as Engineers in France, it is quite often possible to do an MSc in another country as part of the French Engineering Masters degree - French HE is particularly keen on integrated years abroad at a restricted number of partner institutions and then having each institution awarding its own degree even if the full 5 year course hasn't been followed in the mother institution. Students are then usually awarded the Masters qualification of the exchange institution, conferring what is often called a dual degree. This system has its advantages and also disadvantages, in particular constraints and limitations on the range of possible foreign exchange universities.

That’s interesting, @Ceramiq . Thank you.

I can’t help with the French qualifications aspect but will throw some thoughts in on unis. My sibling applied for mechanical engineering with a motorsport focus. From memory they applied to Imperial, Bath, Manchester and Southampton. There must have been others too. They ended up at Southampton on the 4yr undergrad masters course, took a year out in the middle of their course to do an internship at an F1 team and got a graduate place at a different F1 team when they graduated. They are doing very well and have a trackside role now after some UK factory based work. I would look for unis with good and active formula student teams (Oxford Brooks has already been mentioned), and that allow a year out for an internship in case that’s something your DS would want to do. Southampton is well known for its motorsport alumni - Adrian Newey being the most well known.

Thank you!
Our household is bilingual but DS only reads in English (except when its for school) so his level is pretty good.
I'll talk to the school about it.

His English teacher mentioned doing TOEIC instead as it would "be more interesting " but I disagree because it's more business oriented (and he wants science) and is only valid 2 years whereas Cambridge is for life.

I appreciated learning from you. Perhaps I should clarify that I have never been involved with MSc admissions. (Or specified my discipline, IIRC)

If you are looking at UK university applications, the safest bet are the Cambridge C1 Advanced, Cambridge C2 Proficiency and IELTS (which expires after 2 years and must be valid at the point of entry to a UK university). Other English qualifications are not always accepted.

Yes, I have coached people fir the TOEIC and it is very business focussed - not really geared to teenagers.

I’m a bit wary about the American high school diploma. It’s a bit… hard to quantify I guess. I understand that it’s recognised in Parcoursup and that it gives students a GPA which might be useful for applying to US universities 🤷‍♀️. But it seems a little bit like a money spinner to me and I’m really not sure how it would be received by UK unis. Academically it’s nowhere near the BFI / OIB though I’ve heard of it being marketed as such.

I don't think any UK universities care about the American high school diploma tacked on to a French bac. UK universities barely care about the BFI - an IELTS of 7.5 plus a normal French bac with great grades is all that is needed for even the most competitive university courses.

British Chartered Engineers can apply for the Eur Ing title and this would be recognised in France.

Thanks this is useful.
I'm hesitant because if the extra workload it will produce. And it's not like he needs it to improve his English.
So maybe just Bac and Cambridge English Cert...