A level subject shortlist to keep university options open?

[DressToKill]

My dd is trying to decide which A levels to choose. She wants to go to university but doesn’t know which course though might be interested in medical sciences, history or psychology.
Her strengths are the sciences and humanities though extended writing is not her strong point.
She could also probably manage maths which I think would be a good idea.
So does anyone have any advice on, let’s say a shortlist of 5 subjects she should consider to keep her options open?

OK well @OhDear111 that was your DD’s unfortunate experience. It’s not universal, any more than mine and my DD’s is. What is the case tho is that you can look at how to turn a situation to your advantage. I hate the idea that students in an A level or a degree class are in some way competing against each other.

Degrees and A level and GCSE are not a race with a certain proportion of top grades available, such that those who achieve the required mark may not gain one if too many others already have.

In single hons French in my year at uni there were no firsts awarded out of at least 60 students taking it. They just gave first to the top five (or whatever number) – no one did well enough to gain a first (it was a bit of a scandal tbf). In another group of MFL joint hons students that year, where there were three students taking a very specific degree, of whom one gained a first. So a third of the students. Again, not a contest for that first.

Now I think about it, the only (very rare) Firsts awarded in MFL (both single and joint honours) in my year at university were to people with a parent who was a native speaker and/or had spent significant time living abroad. And it wasn't a given: a friend of mine who graduated three years after me with a French father and who had done all her schooling at the French lycée in London up until sixth form when she went to Westminster didn't get a First.

The joint hons student (French and politics) who got a first was definitely not French. She was very very smart and incredibly dedicated and hard working tho.

@claryMarking systems at A level ensure this don’t they? A % are top. Obviously at degree level there’s more firsts now. DH remembers one on his degree!

The luxury of time spent abroad by people with native parent(s) gives a huge advantage over others and how can that knowledge of culture be spread around? DD didn’t know what the translation would be about. The 1/2 French students don’t offer their deep knowledge from day 1. It wasn’t really until the summer vacation and they disappeared to France etc did DD twig. Not really complaining because she enjoyed the degree and it opened the door she wanted but it’s one where background is a huge help.

I agree it’s not a given native speakers get a first but they truly don’t have to work as hard on language acquisition and inevitably have a deeper knowledge of culture if they have spent months or years in the country and it’s ingrained in the family.

She is doing both history and geography and may do better at geography but she loves history.
I wonder if she should look at bit closer at Geography. It has the benefit of being both a BA and a BSc subject which might suit your undecided DD. Some Universities have a common first year so you don't have to decide which route you take until Y2.
Geography covers all sorts of subjects de jour like the climate crisis, environment, population movement, geopolitics, mapping & GIS, etc. There are related subjects like Earth Sciences, Geology, etc. It teaches report writing. data collection & analysis, collaborative working, project management.

A choice of Chemistry, Geography and Maths might suit her. Or Chem, Geo and Psy.

@OhDear111 It's a common misconception that plurilingual children haven't had to work hard to acquire and don't have to work hard to maintain and improve their languages. Research is pretty clear that this is not the case, though parents have to work even harder IME!

Well they don’t have to work as hard as those who started from zero at 11 or 12 do they? @Ceramiq

@OhDear111 - it’s not a foregone conclusion that non-native speakers are intimidated by native speakers. Both my DDs had native speakers in their French A level classes; both were happy to ask them for help. They often found their written French and their grammar was pretty much as good (in some cases better because my DDs had formally learnt French grammar) and when it came to writing essays about the novels and the films they studied, there was really nothing between them. I’m sorry that your DD had a different experience.

It probably helps that i did an MFL degree and so like @clary i see these things in a more positive light. I started a language from scratch at uni (Russian) and have used it a lot in my career as a lawyer - my Russian is by no means perfect, certainly not native level, but it’s good enough for me to work in it, read documents, speak to clients etc.

They put the work in earlier and, for properly bilingual children, it is a huge additional burden to do everything twice (50% of time devoted to each mother tongue). I speak from extensive personal experience as both a language learner and a parent of plurilingual children.

@DressToKill - as @senua says, geography has amazing variety as a degree. Also, a friend’s daughter has just been accepted on to the Environmental Humanities course at Exeter which sounds very interesting: https://www.exeter.ac.uk/undergraduate-degrees/ba-environmental-humanities/

@Ceramiq Oh come on! Work! Parental luck! They take the same exams but take 11 years longer to get to the same level? You can clearly see who might just be brighter!

It's not an IQ test so no, you cannot infer anything at all about who is brighter. And an A-level MFL is not an accurate measure of native speaker language ability. In UK schools only the IB allow bilingual students to take native speaker final examinations in both languages. There are provisions in other education systems (eg the French bac) for bilingual diplomas. These are very hard.

I'm glad your DD had a good experience with native speakers in her A level class @Dery – I think the key point is to take any advantage you can, and not see a native speaker as some kind of competitor, but rather as a possible helpful colleague.

You don’t have to do better than them – because the A level does not demand native speaker fluency nor ability. Yes an A star will take a lot of work. But it will for a native speaker too – tho of course they have linguistic knowledge that will help. But it won't hinder you, a non-native. Advantage from your parents – well that can happen in all kinds of ways.

I got the top grade in French A level. So did my friend who spent every summer in France and spoke much better French than I did. We called her “the dictionary”.

Sorry @DressToKill this is very off topic and a bit of a well-worn theme.

Btw I see that I managed to mangle my previous post - I meant to say: In single hons French in my year at uni there were no firsts awarded out of at least 60 students taking it. They didn't just give a first to the top five (or whatever number) – no one did well enough to gain a first (it was a bit of a scandal tbf).

@clary All exams with a spoken element help those with language acquisition from birth. Yes others catch up - but they work a LOT harder! You seem to overlook this. Yes, parents who have academic talents help dc. It’s partly why some dc under achieve. They don’t get any help and certainly don’t spend all summer in France. This then helps with cultural topics at degree level and others really do have to do more work!

Native speakers also spent a lot of time learning their language. They did it when they were younger and it probably didn't feel like work to them, but they did it nonetheless. I don't see why this learning shouldn't be rewarded.

@DressToKill History A-level has an NEA of 3500-4500 words. Just keep that in mind - if she really does not like writing (that much) I would remove it from the list. Geography also has coursework. Religious Studies does not, but it is not required for anything.

I would pick: Biology, Chemistry, History (if a history degree is a serious possibility) or Maths (if good enough at maths). Since she wants to keep her options open, I wouldn't pick Psychology. (There is nothing wrong with the subject, but in her case she would have to drop something for it which would open more doors.)

Oh in her case I would also only pick German or Music if there is a realistic possibility that she may pursue those at degree level. They are fantastic subjects, but if she drops History for them she cannot pursue a history degree and if she drops Bio or Chem for them she cannot pursue a pharnacy degree. So if those are real possibilities her choices are limited by that.

That said, she could investigate allied health professions a bit more. There are many which only require biology and she may find that she is particularly drawn to one of those. Then she could drop Chemistry. (Great subject though.)

It's great that she has so many talents!

For Pharmacology or Pharmacy, you’d normally need Chemistry plus a couple of other science/maths subjects.

For psychology, it would be much more flexible.

My general advice would be to do a selection of core subjects because they usually facilitate the widest range of options at university - so subjects like history, maths, chemistry, French, geography.

Agree re German only leading directly to German or MFL degree so not needed unless that is of interest.

Actusly you don’t need history for some history degrees but really if it was such a passion surely you would take it.

Hard agree with you @SoftIce about the work put in by native speakers of MFL. Also they will have had to work harder at English for other exams but no one mentions that.

We have different kind of problem. Ds is interested in history and politics so those would have been his a level choices. But we are moving abroad and he is having to do IB. Not very happy studying maths physics English etc .

@clary That’s not true about MFLs. It’s hated on MN but Cambridge have great advice for all their humanities and non stem degrees. They advise 2 from MFLs, English (lit), History and Maths. This is good prep, they say, for nearly all their courses but obviously not science. The third A level should come from a second group to reflect interest, eg politics, Religious studies, history of art etc. So German is 100% useful for a whole list of degrees at Cambridge and elsewhere.

@OhDear111 But German is not required for pharmacy / pharmacology or history, which the OP's daughter is interested in. She'll have to take the required subjects for those degrees. She could take German instead of History, but it will reduce her history degree choices to those which do not require history.

Not every student is aiming for Cambridge or very highly ranked universities. Students need to make realistic choices based on their likely grade profiles and aptitudes. If Cambridge for a humanties degree is a realistic option then consulting the list is a good idea. If you are looking at slightly less selective courses it is less important. Look at grade and subject requirements at a range of unis not just Cambridge. Google is a great tool for doing this quickly.

AAA in history, politics & sociology is likely to leave a lot more humanities doors open than ACD in history, german and maths. If you are looking at an MFL or engineering degree then it is different. Similarly if MFL and maths are real strengths, then they will be excellent choices regardless. However, if they aren't and you have strengths in other areas I would think carefully about taking them if a humanties degree is the aim.
I don't 'hate' the Cambridge list, but it is relevant for students aiming for Cambridge. Other students need to look at the requirements for a range of unis that are likely targets based on their grade profile.

@clary "Hard agree with you @SoftIce about the work put in by native speakers of MFL. Also they will have had to work harder at English for other exams but no one mentions that."

There does come a time when bilingual students with an extremely high degree of fluency and native speaker education of some sort in both languages become better writers (in both their languages) because of the additional skills they have acquired and a cross-fertilization effect. But getting to the point where you have native speaker writing skills in both languages is really arduous.

@SoftIce I didn’t say it was required. However it is still a subject to keep many doors open, and the thread is about that. Subjects “required” are often just one or indeed might be none, eg law. Clearly it’s not a science and if dc want a science subject, do sciences.

I think it’s always good practice to read what the best universities think. Knowledge is power. It maximizes chances of success and just because low tarrif unis are bums on seats and won’t care, not everyone is aiming low. Most on mn are aiming higher and it would aid social mobility if dc did appropriate subjects for better universities.

There is a big spectrum between 'aiming low' and Cambridge. Knowledge definetely is power. If Cambridge is a possibility, then consulting their list is important. However, I would suggest looking beyond the recomendations of a single institution and doing some wider research. One of the benefits of the internet is the wealth of information out there. Students can research a range of unis. Some courses have almost universal subject requirements. For example, engineering will almost always need maths. However, for many courses there is considerable flexibility in the subjects accepted. This is particularly true for humanties and social sciences. History was of interest to the OPs child. Most high tariff universities are very flexible in the a level subjects they accept for history.

Choosing a subject that you don't have a particular aptitude for and isn't a core requirement can be a mistake. You may end up with lower grades than if you made an alternative choice. On MN it might seem that everyone is destined for AAA, but this isn't the reality. It can help to play to your strengths. Grade requirements at highly selective unis are pretty rigid.
I would also say that even lower tariff universities will have grade and potentially subject requirements. The idea that post 92 universities just accept everyone even with very low grades is misplaced. Some popular subjects have competitive entry requirements across a range of universities.