Top Maths Universities that are Nurturing

[MarchHares]

My y12 ds would like to study maths at university and his school recommends he should be aiming high. We have visited some and just need to narrow down his list.
I recently read a thread about a student at Bath struggling with 2nd year and not finding the department supportive.
So if anyone has inside knowledge of the top 20 English maths universities, I would be grateful to know which are most/least supportive.

Universities will support, but not in the style that a parent or a school often would, if that's what you were wondering.

I think mathematics is an interesting one, as the year's cohorts often seem to be quite close-knit and to understand each other well, but also that there will be 1, 2 or more incredibly gifted and competitive people within them, who live, sleep and breathe abstract work, and make it look as if they don't have to put much effort in (not sure if that's actually true). One person in my first year had a whiteboard for a wall and their room was, by choice, more of a classroom with a bed and a lamp in it. So I suspect it can give confidence a bashing in the others who are maybe not so driven, and put pressure on from the friendship group as well as the academic tuition side.

I'd echo caution about any universities that have had more than one recent wave of cutting staff, and sometimes, courses. I know of several. Mathematics and STEM will mostly not be in the first line for this, but the squeeze will impact the support functions, as they serve all students, and it's often not a quick or reactive action already, to access support such as counselling or advice - though they do care about reaching students who need these.

@MarchHares you haven't specified what kind of support you're looking for, nor what support your DC might actually need.

I teach in the humanities, in a top tier university, but the principles of teaching at any university are much the same. We expect students to get on with it (as they tell us they're SOOOO passionate about the subject in interviews!).

We expect they will attend all scheduled lectures, seminars, and tutorials.

We expect they'll do the preparation for these timetabled face to face teaching opportunities - in my field we expect around 3-4 hours of individual or group preparation/study for every hour of face-to-face learning & teaching.

We expect that if they're in difficulties, they will get doubly conscientious about working through the material, that they will attend seminars and participate - ask questions, join in the discussion. We learn through collaboration and participation.

I don't expect to have to do individual extra tuition for students who don't do the work. I don't expect them to value their time over mine (the number of students who tell me they "can't" attend the seminar but could they book an individual tutorial hour to catch up? Well, no.

If they are having difficulties beyond the academic work, I can give them advice about how to approach their studies, but welfare and well-being issues are dealt with elsewhere. I do think parents and their DC need to get their heads around university study as advanced learning which is - by definition - hard work.

So if you could outline what you anticipate might be your DC's issues, we might be able to offer more specific suggestions?

As a humanities academic, can I thank you for expanding my vocab via 'orthogonal', @poetryandwine?

Utilising lecturers’ office hours is another ordinary thing that can make a big difference.I always wonder how many of the students who feel unseen in their struggles are attending office hours and (when offered) help sessions, checking in honestly with their PTs per School conventions, etc. A common theme on this Board is students raising the alarm at home whilst telling their parents they couldn’t possibly do any of this, as it would be too embarrassing.

Eventually they appear spontaneously at the PT door in tears, and this is the behaviour we find more difficult to deal with - not least because we never have a spontaneous moment in the day. It is also arrogant to think you can bypass well thought out support mechanisms and that busy people should see you at your convenience, true emergencies excepted.

And yes, yes to all this. I don't think I've ever had an undergraduate who showed up for termly meetings with me as his/her PT, who utilised office hours, asked for extensions where needed via the appropriate channels, the subject-specific academic help resources run by the library, disability services where necessary etc etc who ended up in serious trouble with their studies.

The ones who keep in touch and communicate we can help. The ones who don't show up for PT contact, never flag that they're struggling, miss an exam, and then panic and complain there's no one in their PT's office on a random Tuesday afternoon in July -- those are the ones who are difficult to help. Because their struggles are presented as a fait accompli at a point where it's too late to do most of what we can do.

Warwick was great for dd.

In my example, DD knuckled down and tackled the challenging piece of work. She produced something. No, it was not her best work by any means but the point was she realised it was in her hands, and she needed to find the way forward.

And I would hope that, maybe six months later, she realised that she learnt something from having to knuckle down and work her way through difficult material. Even if she didn't get the mark she was used to receiving for her work, she'll have gained from the experience (although I do wish students wouldn't equate marks with learning).

Also a brilliant post from @poetryandwine - re personal tutoring : when I have tutees (I don't at the moment as other aspects of my workload are overwhelming my working week), I usually have around 20. I invite them in an open invitation to a series of individual and/or small group meetings twice a term.

I sit in my office waiting for the students eager to discuss their progress, or their feedback, or their module choices, but ... tumbleweed. Around 1 or 2 students respond - we have an enjoyable conversation when they turn up, but very few of them actually take up the opportunity offered.

I have specific concerns which I don’t wish to share. I have several dc who will be going to university in time as well.
It sounds like I just need to encourage him to engage wherever he goes.

If you have specific concerns, then the best approach is to ask specific questions at Open Days of the staff who would be in a better position to know.

We’ve taken him to 4 open days, if he attends anymore he will be going alone via public transport. I don’t think he would be comfortable asking questions specific to him, perhaps on offer holder days.

Yes indeed @ParmaVioletTea that was in a challenging year for her but having asked for help and got it (in the form of an extended deadline for her work) she realised how important it was to focus the following year on getting the work done so it didn’t mount up. She did really really well in the end.

@MarchHares it’s fine (as I said before) if you don’t want to share your specific concerns here, of course. But that means that no one can really advise beyond the generalities we have noted already.

Could someone go to open days with your DS if he would not be keen to share concerns himself? It might be better if he could establish if the right kind of support would be available before committing to applying, ie at an open day rather than an offer holder day – when frankly the die is more or less cast.

And this is the problem! Potential issues but "not comfortable" asking about potential support, seeking help?

This could be a disaster waiting to happen. And it is not for want of care by the institution or the individuals who work within it, much as you think you're buying an education for your DC.

Good to read that @clary

I have taken up weightlifting in my old middle age. As an academic grafter who became a high flyer (I "only" got a 2,i back in the day) I'm used to being good at stuff. Learning to lift heavy weights at 60 meant I had to learn about failure - but it's by training near to failure that your muscles grow. It's a tough lesson but I try to translate that to my professional life and my teaching - high gain comes from high risk, and near-failure teaches us stuff.

@ParmaVioletTea made an important point just above, OP. How and when will DS begin to seek out what he needs?

If he is reluctant to ask in person, he can email the School of Maths admissions teams his questions. Email can go to anyone and it will be routed correctly. We generally like to help; a brief statement of interest including his PGs, because he sounds like a high flyer, will defo not hurt.

I would think confidentiality rules ought to apply (though I am not certain) but I see nothing stopping DS making a burner account and using a pseudonym for this enquiry, if he prefers. So what if in the end Joe Bloggs doesn’t apply? No one will think twice.

The drawback is that this may increase the feeling that there is something to be furtive about, which is categorically false. I am not recommending it except as an alternative to doing nothing.

We are giving DS a lot of attention because we want him to succeed.

I always think it looks like a happy place

I have a friend who experienced exactly this and was able to change her degree to a completely different one. I can’t now remember if she was at Oxford or Cambridge but, like the boat race, it was definitely one or the other.

OP check the actual contact hours that each university provides. Some are remarkably low.

All this. I’ve worked for 20 years on the admin side of pastoral care. Help and support is readily available but the student shouldn’t be passive and should preferably engage in person (and this has been in a downward trend since covid, unfortunately). Too often we’ve only become involved at a late stage, meaning we’re picking up the pieces, trying to obtain medical letters and look for the outcome that is in the student’s best interests. Not keeping up academically feeds in to poor mental health and as @ParmaVioletTea indicates, there is plenty of help there too.

I understand what you're getting at and it's not unreasonable imo. Lancaster uni seemed like the kind of place you're looking for - it's decent in the league tables for maths but also felt like you'd be looked after (if you needed it) and could be more than a number, no pun intended. Maybe it's as simple as being a northern/more friendly thing, because Sheffield felt more like that too, rather than the sink or swim faceless masses vibe that can dominate in other places that are very good in other ways. No axe to grind for Lancs, but worth a look if you're benchmarking different places and trying to find somewhere to suit him.

When I worked there, Lancaster also runs a College system, with pretty good pastoral care. They used to run a Part I/Part II system, so students did a subject other than their main one in Part I, and could make changes to their degree programme going into Part II (2nd & 3rd year). But I think that has been diluted - funding shortfalls and cuts because tuition fees don't cover costs any more.