Top Maths Universities that are Nurturing

[MarchHares]

My y12 ds would like to study maths at university and his school recommends he should be aiming high. We have visited some and just need to narrow down his list.
I recently read a thread about a student at Bath struggling with 2nd year and not finding the department supportive.
So if anyone has inside knowledge of the top 20 English maths universities, I would be grateful to know which are most/least supportive.

I think you might need to adjust your expectations. University is about becoming an independent learner, and while there are institutions that will have better support services than others, that doesn't mean that every lecturer within that institution will be supportive.

From what I read of that Bath thread, it didn't seem that the department was necessarily unsupportive, but rather that they don't have much flexibility in their course structure.

That meant the student in question wasn't able to transfer to a different course. If you think your son will need a more flexible course that allows him to consider his options before fully committing to one, Scottish universities usually allow for this. He could also choose a course like Natural Sciences, which would allow him to combine maths with other subjects.

In what particular way do you think your son will need nurturing?

Quotes from that thread;

”Is it bath?
As if so, the year 2 maths course is gaining a bit of a rep for this kind of thing”

“It is.”

”Thanks for suggestions all. They have been told they cannot swap course, they would have to start again if they wanted to switch degree. They are not finding the tutors particularly helpful.”

“Or possibly transfer to another maths degree at a supportive uni?
Dd went to Warwick and it felt like the maths / economist students had the love of their subject drilled out of them!”

I would like ds to go to a university where if he approaches his tutor to say he is struggling for any reason, he has his options laid out and it is made clear they are there to help. We will be paying about £60k for the privilege of going to university after all.

What do you mean by supportive?

Not being able to swap courses isn’t unusual. If you have missed modules in year one you may not be able to cope with modules in year two, etc. The actual lecturers will have their hands tied.

A relative of mine is enjoying maths at Cambridge. Likes the tutorial system. I guess you get very focused, individual support/advice via that.

My DC is at Imperial. He is struggling because the course is challenging, and he has never been in a situation where he had to make an effort. He is getting excellent support from tutors, but I would not recommend the university to any student who is not resilient. It is gruelling. Tutor support is only one variable.

The nature of university if pretty independent learning, they’re not going to be “nurturing”.

Universities are big institutions.

tutors vary massively in terms of how supportive they are. If your DS has particular needs - eg us disabled or has MH issues then most universities have some type of student suppprt services/disability support services that will help him navigate the system.

my dd who is disabled went to Newcastle and the student support people there were great. But they are not part of any academic department.

My friend's DC is studying maths at Hertfordshire and finding it very supportive. But it's not a top maths uni so I guess they have more experience with students who are struggling with the subject.

This is a perfectly reasonable expectation. Go along to open days and ask specifically about student support and what systems and resources they have set up for this. Look at the student satisfaction survey.

What @Skule and @goz said.

Yes I think Newcastle are good. Ideally there should be good communication and links between the academics and the pastoral support services.

My child is at Oxford. I don’t think he would describe that as nurturing. He loves it, but it is demanding and unforgiving. While the external support system appears to be very good, within the tutorials themselves there is nowhere to hide. You are entirely exposed, and it is a very high-pressure environment where you are expected to be on the top of your game. A lot of the selection process seems to be about finding the right people to fit that environment, though. Hence the interviews; they give you a taste of what to expect. Make sure you go to open days; one of the colleges gave an example of a tutorial so you knew what to expect and that was really useful.

We have visited 4 universities from 1st to 22nd ranking so he does have a good idea of what lectures will be like and the admissions systems. I think advice from people who have been there, done that is invaluable though.
Newcastle sounds great, but is probably too low down the rankings for him and also very far north 🤣

As others have said it depends what kind of nurturing you are looking for. Top 20 is also very broad when it comes to maths. If your DC is normally performing well and works hard then is stuck on one topic and needs some help then that is very different to wanting to change courses. Go to open days and run scenarios past a tutor and speak to the students.

From what you have said generally already Birmingham might fit the bill.

I think the most important thing, during Y12 and the early part of Y13, is to try and assess realistically how mathematically able you are - esp in relation to pure maths, and whether or not you are on a rising trajectory of skill building or beginning to find it progressively more challenging. Play close attention to marks at end-of-module tests, esp in FM.

The issue for unis below COWI (and U of Bath is only just below) is that they do not ask for TMUA etc which are designed to help predict likely success at uni-level maths. My DC took the old-style TMUA, despite not applying for unis where this was compulsory, so as to calibrate themselves better in relation to the hierarchy of maths departments. The latest reforms to the TMUA make this a less viable strategy.

Lancaster University has a strong maths department, course structures that allow for shifting emphasis whilst at uni, and a collegiate system to provide extra support. It is three hours from London (as is Newcastle), for those in the SE, but distance may something that has to be traded off against other perceived requirements.

OP if you think your son might need more emotional support than other students, I would advise staying very close to home.

Universities are all making cuts, and I imagine pastoral care will be one of the first things to go.

There is a definite expectation that students should be able to find their own way with minimum support in my experience, both emotionally and academically. The best way to ensure your child is OK is for them to live close enough to home to come back regularly.

A friend’s child is at Exeter doing maths and has had a lot of support - they’ve been very impressed. Would be worth a look.

This is not going to happen OP. As others have said students are expected to learn independently - it’s not like school. Yes there are student support services of varying efficacy but I think you need to be a bit more realistic about what being a student means

You’re paying for the opportunity to learn, though. It’s still not entirely clear what you mean by ‘support’ — do you mean if he finds his studies difficult, or does he have additional needs of some kind (in which case he would be dealing with Disability Services rather than his academic department)? Personal tutors will generally just refer a student to the relevant services eg student counselling.

Dd went to Bath, her friend went to York. Bath was more supportive in dd's opinion. But that was because she had a personal tutor who liked her and could help with her issues.

(Many kids in maths seem to have issues towards the middle of second year)

Her friend in York had a personal tutor who didn't really want to speak to students and she quit rather than stay.
Would suggest you ask about second year leaving rates on the course at unis of choice. You might be shocked.

I went to Cambridge.

getting in is not particularly easy but they’ll go to a lot of effort to support you once you are there.

however the sheer workload is not to be sniffed at.

i was quite ill during my time there - in hospital, operations etc - and I moved into sick bay for my finals which I sat in my senior tutors office because I wouldn’t have been able to walk to the main exam hall.

the tripos system means you can swop out of maths to eg Nat sci if needed.

In the case of Bath and not being able to switch course, I agree that its not good to get to year 2 and find that your struggling to make up ground, because yr 2 is building on yr 1 knowledge.

However its always been the case that if you want to switch course you will in most cases have to start the new degree from year 1.

The physics dept - just to give an example - aren't going to exempt you from yr 1, even if there's a lot of maths in that degree.

Its probably a better move to look at degrees where there is a lot of flexibility , so that you have options to choose that can play to your strengths.

I would suggest looking at Bath, Lancaster and Birmingham. DS studied Maths at Oxford, like a pp he loved it but the pace was relentless and the tutorials were 2 to 1, so plenty of individual attention but nowhere to hide. Tutors did have 'office hours' for students to drop in. DS had around 10 hrs of lectures per week, a further 4 tutorials and generally worked 8-9 hrs a day 6 days a week (terms are very short). Agree with a pp that the entire selection process is designed to select students who can work like this.
He has friends at Imperial, Bath and Lancaster - Imperial reviews are mixed - again if it suits, it is great. Friend at Bath has had a fantastic experience plus the bonus of a year in Industry for work experience. Lancaster, similarly very strong. DS had Bath and Birmingham on his original list.
@PerpetualOptimist makes a really good point about assessing how Mathematically able your dc is. For many Maths students there is a very definite 'ceiling' - it might be for some that it hits in second year. I remember DS feeling he had hit his algebra 'ceiling' in his Masters year - thankfully there were plenty of other options that he loved and he came out with a 1st

DD went to Bath graduated last her. Some of her friends did Maths and her BF Computer science. What she found was they were pushed hard but they are some of the most academically able kids, heads down most of the time but knew how to have fun too. She loved her time there and whilst final year was tough going she has come out with a brilliant job, whenever she needed the support and reached out to the Uni it was always there.