Top Maths Universities that are Nurturing

[MarchHares]

My y12 ds would like to study maths at university and his school recommends he should be aiming high. We have visited some and just need to narrow down his list.
I recently read a thread about a student at Bath struggling with 2nd year and not finding the department supportive.
So if anyone has inside knowledge of the top 20 English maths universities, I would be grateful to know which are most/least supportive.

Durham maths dept not nurturing at all but the college etc system is. My YP deliberately applied a step down from where a level results and TMUA etc would suggest as wanted to have some fun at uni too (and school friends in the years above had reported back from Bath and Imperial and Warwick!). Even at a few places down the league tables maths is intense - lectures of hundreds of students and 20+ hours a week and it's completely different to school maths.

If in any doubt your DS needs to go lower down the league tables again or else opt for a joint degree which effectively allows switching to more of the "other subject" modules if the maths is too much.

All unis will provide both academic and some level of support for SEND but your son needs to be able to work out who to contact to ask for it. Usually this is well communicated when students start at uni and should at the very least be accessible on their websites. Send support is often better at less traditional universities. So ex polys.

Tutors on large courses dont have the time built in to their workplan to offer much individual support. Their jobs aren't organised with this in mind. They are organised so that they deliver maximum teaching hours, marking hours, module admin hours, research hours etc. Universities employ other people to deliver supoort. (I guess in a way it makes sense, a brilliant chemical engineer will not know anything about the student accommodation for example)

Students at that level are expected to be proactive at using the other tools that universities provide in a support capacity. There will often be extra support services connected to the library for academic support, student services for things like accommodation and fees support, there may be a team or department for wellbeing support. Some lecturers may be able to offer a bit more support but I would say that it is a very individual decision by the lecturer.

The more prestigious or higher ranking the uni the less these areas supoort come from the lecturers. And if you ask them for supoort they will signpost you to the other areas. And they may have 3 days to reply to your email, so the supoort is rarely time responsive enough. (2 x unis I have worked in have had such guidelines about response times).

So it may be wise on your visits to look at what those other supoort tools look like.

Always visit the library. That's my advice. Hope you find the right place for your son!

Be clear on what you are expecting.

DD has a chronic condition, she's missed seminars and asked to have deadlines extended (not maths). She's found her tutors supportive.

If she was entirely struggling with the 2nd year of her course, there is a limit to what help they can give her. It's also not a given that you can swap courses and you will likely have to do some degree of repeating even where you can.

Many students (not clear if that was the case in the one you quoted) also do not access all the support that is available. The most nurturing university in the world will not help if your child is struggling quietly in their room.

A top 20 maths university will have large year groups, and will be limited in how much support it can give to an individual student.

Not Glasgow anyway based on my son and his friends experience

OP I posted on the Bath maths thread and my take on it tbh was that the YP in question perhaps had hit a wall in maths – sounds as tho this is something that can happen and it is such a different discipline from (for example) Eng lit that I can believe it. DS did A level maths and he found a lot of it a struggle with no real way through (tho when he did get it he said it was the best feeling). It was hard to ascertain the exact issue on the Bath thread as there was not lots of detail given (fair enough of course) but there were some helpful replies.

If your DS wants a course where he can easily switch then for most maths courses (or indeed most courses) that will involve restarting, IME anyway. It’s best if this decision can be made in the first year tbh. A mate of DS’s switched uni (same course, not maths) after a few weeks of the first year – that is, they decided they didn’t like the first choice uni after all. They went somewhere else – but even doing the same course, and even leaving uni one at end October, they had to restart the first year the following Sept.

My DD struggled at one point at uni (not maths) and got amazing support from her PT and the dept as a whole that enabled her to complete her degree. I would think (hope) that level of help would be available everywhere (for DD, without going into too much detail, it was on the lines of – these are your options (one was to repeat the year); we can help in this way). It’s a case of identifying issues early and thus being able to deal.

What issues do you envisage your DS having? I can’t see that you have specified. Is it relating to disability or ND for example? I agree with others that uni is about independent learning and, if needs be, seeing issues early enough to take action (as my DD thankfully did).

Good post from @PerpetualOptimist – with maths it may well be the case that you breezed through A level and uni is a big shock. And as I say, there’s less room for flex – using skills you have, writing an essay that is acceptable and that you can improve on – than with say a humanities degree.

Also good post from @redskyAtNigh – support is only useful if you access it.
Could you maybe list the top 20 unis your DS is looking at and people could maybe give their personal exp of some? Tho tbh it will vary so much. I strongly suspect DD’s actual PT who was amazing was a big factor in her actually being able to finish her degree. Someone else in the same uni or even the same dept might have a different experience.

I think you need to be aware that a "top" Maths course will be tough. The previous thread re struggling at Year 2 level suggested to me that the student concerned was finding their level. Students might want a First, but not all students are capable of a First. And that's absolutely fine. University grades are a measure of a specific thing, not an indication of a person's value across their whole life.

I see colleagues' DC who are very good at maths at school, but find university level Maths very challenging.

You really need to think about what you mean by "nurturing." The material covered in a curriculum at university should be tough. Students should feel that they have to work hard, and they will struggle with aspects of the curriculum.

That is absolutely normal, and as it should be at a top university that is looking to produce the next generation of innovators and independent thinkers.

We seem to have forgotten to tell young people that high quality learning (in any discipline) is hard. Learning new things at the edge of one's competence - in order to extend that competence - is difficult.

I think you need to be aware that a "top" Maths course will be tough.

Yes, absolutely this. I, and I suspect many other DC, found maths easy at school, comparatively easily getting top marks in every test and exam I ever took without ever really having to try too hard.

Then I went to university and actually had to work at it, and for the first time, there were questions I couldn't answer. I expect this comes as a huge shock for many students and is not an issue that "more nurturing" will solve.

Very sorry to hear this. Is there anything at all you are comfortable sharing?

What kind of nurturing do you think they’ll need?

If it’s concern re what will happen if they find the course too challenging then it’s really a good idea not to focus on the top universities. These are extremely competitive to get into and will be teaching to challenge the top students and may be less understanding when students aren’t keeping up - after all they don’t hide their competitive nature. If he’s predicated very high A level grades think carefully about what it’s taking to get them.

If it’s more of a mental health concern, this is more of a mixed bag and you need to drill down into the specific support you think may be needed. It also depends how well the student will engage.

In either scenario you need to prepare for the fact you may not know of they are struggling in anyway as universities won’t be communicating with you.

I did not see the Bath thread. However when I was a STEM admissions tutor in our highly ranked School, I dealt with external transfer students. Typically they leave their first university after Y1 and wish to start in Y2, but lack some necessary background. On the rare occasion that the gaps seem minimal enough to approve the direct transfer to Y2, they usually struggle. It is much sounder to start again in Y1.

None of this is about the external nature of the transfer. Gaps are gaps. Students (and their parents) do not tend to appreciate this until they are floundering.

Based on the descriptions here, I would not be put off Bath by that thread.

It’s true as PP have said, importantly, that some choose maths intensive subjects because they love maths and are up for a challenge whilst others fall into these areas because maths has always come easily. OP, the fact that DS’ school suggests he aim high means that they think he is up for a challenge.

The Schools of Maths likely to give him one are not necessarily the most ‘nurturing’, but within any of them it is usually - not always - the case that personal tutors, lecturers, project supervisors etc respond well to engaged undergraduates, and do make time to help them. (This is in addition to the Student Support Services, formal mitigations, etc, for students with diagnosed disabilities)

In particular although it isn’t something that can be mandated, a good relationship with one’s PT can be a great source of moral support. Students can cultivate that by fulfilling their side of the relationship as laid out by the university, which a shocking number do not.

I suggest DS join the online forum The Student Room. He can pose any questions he likes directly to Maths students (in particular degree programmes, if he wishes) at whichever universities he likes. The quality of the responses is usually very good.

Thank you all for your replies, certainly make interesting reading.
I studied maths at Oxbridge so do understand the challenge and if anything ds is more mathematically able, though perhaps not quite as hard working.
He is at a large prestigious school and represented them in the recent UKMT team finals. I just feel his current school is more about putting pressure on than they are about supporting the students.
I am interested to hear more from the poster who mentioned TMUA has changed, ds is just starting to prepare for this.
Also very interested about rates of y2 dropout, I wonder if this data is available online.
Of course university is about being an independent adult, but this makes iIt even more important to pick wisely,

I mentioned the TMUA, which was originally pioneered by Durham and then adopted by others as a way of encouraging prospective candidates to take a 'no risk' test that, esp on paper 2, probed problem solving skills not really covered in FM but out in force in a maths uni course.

The 'no risk' aspect was that you did not have to declare your result (if poor) but, if good, you could declare and potentially get a lower offer for your troubles. The reformed TMUA has been taken up by a smaller, exclusively elite group of unis on the basis of 'if you sit the test, you must tell us the result'.

You also do not get a breakdown of the paper 1 and paper 2 scores, I believe, which, for my DC, was helpful (one had a very strong p2 despite only limited prep, so demonstrated relative potential they were not previously aware of).

There was only one sitting of the old TMUA and you got the results back before the Jan deadline and could fine tune your uni selection as a result.

Definitely not Warwick, my DD’s have multiple friends who crashed out of the maths and physics programmes, they call didn’t get the support they needed

One of my DC studied Maths at Durham and found the collegiate system good for pastoral support. They graduated a few years ago so obviously things may have changed but when they struggled in their second year (a mixture of moving out of halls and managing the increase in work load as an autistic student) the university were very understanding and offered them a short break to de-stress, then peer support and academic mentorship to get them back on track. They ended up having a really good four years of study, both socially (loads of societies) and academically (they went on to complete a PhD).

I don't know about Durham, but York have recently (as in, the last year) cut their college staff to save costs and most things are now centralised. Like everywhere in higher education, they are having to make hard choices about spending.

FYI from this Autumn, Oxford Maths will replace the MAT by the TMUA.

There are indications that Cambridge may do the same from the 2027 admissions cycle but that they may still include STEP in the conditional offer. I hope that this is true and that using TMUA will help them to be more discerning: at present about 50% of Cambridge Maths offer holders fail the STEP component of their offer; Cambridge sets the grade boundaries (nationwide) to control its entry numbers.

I think it would be better all around to make fewer offers and have a higher success rate. I hope that using TMUA as a screen will help with this.

School have told us prospective Cambridge applicants must do TMUA in October and the school will then advise whether or not students should apply. They say STEP will be required if applying to Cambridge. It has changed a lot since my day.

I’m assuming he’s doing Further Maths as you are mentioning Oxbridge? More nurturing universities are likely to be ones with slightly lower grades (and not compulsory to have done FM).

Dd is at Cambridge, Computer science rather than maths. TMUA but no requirement for STEP for CS. I'm sure you're familiar with the supo system and DD has a very supportive DOS. She's loving it and I'm sure this would be a great environment for your DS too. The additional structure of the collegiate system and college parents/families with older students is a great addition. Good luck to your son, STEP is always the difficult part with some outstanding students not making their offer for Maths despite excellent Alevel and TMUA results.

I think what you should look for is how supportive the students are of each other. Study groups are extremely helpful for degrees like maths and physics. If the students are very competitive and reluctant to help each other, that would be a big issue for me.

How would you measure that though 🤣🤣🤣

Asking on TSF will give some idea

Edit : TSR

Study groups are totally dependent on the people in them though ... last year's amazingly supportive study groups do not mean that this year's will be.