Struggling academically with uni course (maths) - what should YP do?

[wrongtimewrongplace]

YP at a top ten uni in YR 2 undergrad studying maths. YP sailed through school, all A stars and As, always loved maths, but has struggled academically at uni. Scraped through first year with a condoned pass in one subject. Has just failed one of the first semester YR2 exams, so will have to resit that in the summer. In the first half of YR1, they probably socialised too much but has knuckled down since then and is working hard, but marks do not seem to be improving.

My thoughts ( not shared with YP) are that with hindsight, this course (maths) at this uni are probably not right for them, even though they expected to be able based on prior academic attainment. What options are open to them? If they resit and fail, they will not be able to progress to the next year. If they do progress, best case they would come out with a 2/2 or 3rd. Given the current competitive graduate job market, they will struggle to even be considered for lots of jobs ( they want 2/1 or more).

Has anyone else been through similar? What was the outcome for your YP? Do you have any advice?
I’m unsure how to best advise / support them. If they end up leaving at the end of this year, how would they explain it on their cv? How would this affect their future? I am very worried for YP.

tagging @poetryandwine in the hope they see this thread as they will have some answers...

If it isn't working for him then could he ask about swapping to a course that will benefit from his numeracy but be a bit less philosophical? What are his other A levels?

It does happen with some people with UG maths so his tutors ought to be able to advise him

Switch to other stem courses that are still mathematical but less demanding than a pure maths degree. Perhaps do economics

I really feel for you and your son. It didn’t become obvious that my son’s results were not as needed until after his finals when he was offered the choice of retaking his final year or having a pass degree. After much shocked discussion he accepted the pass degree. He was very down for a few months and then he really applied himself to getting his first job. It took a while but he has since built a very creditable career in his chosen field and graduate jibs were hard to come by even then. I would see if there could be any movement at all into other areas of study. Also consider intensive tutoring before his resit. I know the market is tough at the moment but I don’t see a 2:2 or even a 3rd as a brick wall to success as they gain so much more from being at university. I hope this helps x

@Mayismymonth Why do you think the YP is male?

@wrongtimewrongplace : Maths at university is very unlike maths at school. In the first year, my analysis and linear algebra lectures were essentially one proof after another. I'm not exaggerating. I remember an analysis lecture where we went through the proofs of derivative rules in 15 minutes - and then we moved on. (I remember it because it made me laugh.) No "apply these rules to these examples" or even "find the maximum of this curve". No application at all. It was purely theoretical. Including in exams, which was terrible!

Anway, I actually studied statistics, so the second and third years were much better because the modules were more interesting and the maths more applied. Still the odd proof now and then but just to justify the application. So my advice would be: switch to an applied mathematics course like statistics, data science or economics. Those are all much more applied (and in my opinion much more interesting and relevant!) than pure mathematics degrees.

One of my friends had a star-studded brilliant academic record at school, got into Oxford and dramatically failed the first year exams utterly. Restarted at the University of Lancaster and absolutely thrived and got a 1st class degree. It's ok to stumble - we learn more from our mistakes and failures than from.our successes.

If your YP has some decent marks from the course as completed so far they can probably transfer the credit to a different uni. Best to look for ones that structure their courses as modules that can be done in any combination. University Funding has the flexibility to allow restarts like this.

Can they switch to a joint course? I had a friend who was crumbling under the dryness of a maths degree and switched to combined with computer science. Took an extra year to graduate but worked out well.

@SoftIce interesting reading about uni maths being theoretical. With the caveat that i can barely add up, my dd is doing further maths and maths a levels and has been told she is brilliant at proofs (i had no idea what this meant until her teacher explained to me) she is planning to do literature at uni as she thinks she won't be good enough at maths, even with her predicted A*s. Am I being naieve/stupid to think she shoukd consider maths or is it only for absolute maths geniuses?

Interesting that at least 2 person assume the YP must be male- maybe because it is maths? For nursing, would they assume female?
Apart from that, would a move to something like statistics be an option? much more applied!

@Knittedanimal It probably also depends on the university. But in my opinion, if your daughter loves maths, she should absolutely consider it. However, I think maybe I would go for a university which offers a variety of mathsy degrees, so that you have more options. For example (just picking one), Warwick offers Maths but also Stats, MORSE, Data Science, Economics etc. so you could fairly easily move to more applied modules if you enjoy those more. I imagine at Cambridge you'd be more limited but can't speak from experience there!

I agree with @SoftIce I did a pure maths module in 1st year of uni as an option having fairly easily got an A in a-level maths and done a year of further maths Alevel and it was so difficult!! Literally just boards and boards of long equations and proofs and it was a really big lecture group so little opportunity to ask questions.

Gosh this resonates. I nearly did Maths or Physics at university having been excellent at both at school.

Always been so glad I didn’t. I think these are subjects that just go next level at uni and you either get it or you don’t. No amount of knuckling down will make your brain work that way.

I would echo PP suggestions to see if they can swap to a course where maths is helpful, but not theoretical next level in the same way, such as Economics or a science subject (I expect there are others too). Given their academic record they are clearly good at lots of other subjects too, so hopefully a swap would be well considered. Needs to be something they have a genuine interest in of course.

@Knittedanimal Forgot to add: If she's acing maths A-levels I think she would have no problems at all with applied maths modules at university. To me those were really enjoyable and basically seem like a continuation of A-level. I think it's the theoretical ones which A-levels don't really prepare you for, where you can't really say in advance if a person will rise to the occasion or not. I know lots of people who muddled through as a means to an end, not so many geniuses.

@SoftIce A-ha! It's Warwick she's looking at. In an ideal world she'd do maths with literature and philosophy but i don't think it's that flexible. We went to the maths talk at their open day and i think she secretly felt right at home. Such a great uni, shame about the living options.

I would advise them to talk to the school registrar about transferring to a degree course that is more aligned to their strengths. Pure mathematics degrees are very difficult and the competition is fierce for jobs. Any STEM course where maths are applied would be easier maths and have better job prospects. The school can see which courses they can transfer to where most of the classes they have already take. will count towards the new degree and advise them on a way forward.

There is a maths / philosophy degree. I wanted my dd to opt for it.

@wrongtimewrongplace
switching to combined degree could be an option. Or stick it out if likely to get an honours degree.
I know of someone with a third class degree in physics and ended up with a great job in the nuclear industry. So all is not lost.

@Pinkfluffypencilcase yes, those courses look great but literature is her first love.

Is it bath?
As if so, the year 2 maths course is gaining a bit of a rep for this kind of thing

@Knittedanimal It's a shame there are no degrees in something like data journalism, combining data science and creative writing. The data science part at least would make you very employable in other fields, too!

Yes, I've been talking to her about science comms/psychology. But I'm in danger of derailing. Apologies OP and good luck to your dc, it sounds like a transfer to joint hons might be the answer. My mind boggles at tge universes of maths there us beyond my comprehension! I sometimes wonder how our species' brain can vary so much.

The trick, which I observed in others more than myself!, is to stay on top of things. Revise every lecture on the same or next day and do examples if appropriate, adding your own commentary. If they can't follow ask until they do. They'll never get more than a week behind. I saw some quite average students get firsts with this discipline.

If your YP has some decent marks from the course as completed so far they can probably transfer the credit to a different uni.

Hmmmm, this is not always a given. Universities don't follow a national curriculum, so the material covered in 1st year in one university may not be the same at another. So another university may require a complete restart. Certainly starting again at the beginning of 2nd year will be the minimum requirement.

I suspect it may be to do with partying too much in 1st year; the marks don't count towards a degree, but the work does!!

First thing your DC should do is make contact with their personal tutor, and get some feedback on why they are not doing so well as they expected. Your DC should not expect extra one to one tuition, but should try to work through where they're deficient. And ask about any revision seminars or extra workshops the Department might hold. They should be a super tuned in student: go to lectures, take notes, ask questions, do the required independent study.

Maybe your DC is a 2,ii level student at the moment. Maybe, in an intensive course at an elite university - presumably amongst peers who were also excellent at Maths at school - they've found their level. No-one gets a grade just because they want it: they need to put in the work.

So another thing to try to learn from this is HOW to study. Again, lecturers ad personal tutors might help here. Can you afford to employ a local PhD student to do some tutoring for your DC to catch up?

Another point is that someone who aces at school might not have got used to struggling and working through it. I have known people that are straight A candidates who sort of resent and get frustrated when not understanding something the first time.

School maths is a doddle compared to uni maths.
she/he needs to change course. It will be hell going forward.

It is.

are you in a financial position to fund a restart? He has used his gift year so if he restarts a degree he wouldn’t be funded in Y1.

I ask because realistically that answer will shape options. If you can’t fund him to restart, he needs a conversation ASAP with the relevant team to discuss whether there are any degrees at Bath he could swap onto, beginning Y2 of the new course in Sept.